The headline at Democracy Now! reads “Selma Director Ava DuVernay on Hollywood’s Lack of Diversity, Oscar Snub and #OscarsSoWhite Hashtag.” But aren’t we so very tired of the whole concept of “snub”? How about we say Oscar Apathy. Sounds better than Oscar Incompetence. Host Amy Goodman tracked Ms DuVernay down in Park City where, of course, Sundance is this week underway. There’s a convenient transcript that makes it easy for me to lift some key points to port over here for discussion after the cut. We’re able to embed an 8-minute excerpt. You can watch the entire half-hour segment at Democracy Now and a full 60-minute interview here.
AMY GOODMAN: And congratulations for the Golden Globes.
AVA DUVERNAY: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: But you didn’t get nominated, and there are a lot of people all over this country who have seen this film and are shocked that you weren’t nominated for best director. Your thoughts on this?
AVA DUVERNAY: You know, I didn’t expect to be. I actually knew that it wasn’t going to happen. I’ve been telling people since October; no one listened to me. I’m serious. Old interviews that are coming out now, friends who said, “Yeah, you did say that.” I just knew it wasn’t going to be the case, so I never took it into my heart, so it never—didn’t really bother me. I was more bothered by David not being nominated. That hurt my feelings, because I know what he—you know, the beautiful performance. But it’s a—
AMY GOODMAN: David Oyelowo.
AVA DUVERNAY: David Oyelowo, the star of the film who plays Dr. King. But the bottom line is, the film was chosen in some categories—best picture, best song were nominated—and wasn’t chosen in others. And, you know—
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Common and John Legend.
AVA DUVERNAY: That’s Common and John Legend for the song, for “Glory,” and best picture, which is nothing to sneeze at. Nothing to sneeze at. So, you know.
AMY GOODMAN: So, you know this hashtag, the Twitter hashtag #OscarsSoWhite, that began trending soon after the nominees were announced, so many people shocked that your name wasn’t among them, and David’s, as well—
AVA DUVERNAY: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: —pointing out that a 2012 survey conducted by the Los Angeles Times found Oscar voters are 94 percent white, 76 percent male, and the average age 63 years old. Do you think that has anything to do with it?
AVA DUVERNAY: You know, I think—I think, you know, folks see films, see history, see art, see life through their own lens. And when there’s a consensus that has to be made by a certain group, you know, the consensus is most likely going to be through a specific lens. And unless there’s diversity amongst the people that are trying to come to the consensus, then, you know, there will be a lack of diversity in what the consensus is, if that makes sense. So, I think, you know, being here at Sundance is a great example of a group, of an organization that’s made a commitment to diversity, that have considered diversity as more than a talking point, but an action item. You know, I won best director here in 2012, but I was the first black person to do so. So it was a long time coming in that being—you know, that door being opened.
AMY GOODMAN: That was for Middle of Nowhere.
AVA DUVERNAY: That was for Middle of Nowhere. But there’s been a real articulated kind of mission by the institute, by the Sundance Institute, to say we—”Regardless of awards, we are going to be a platform, we are going to be a space, for voices of all kinds, all over the world.” And they’ve articulated that mission, and they’ve executed, and they’re continuing to execute. And so, I think when you talk about the Academy or you talk about just this industry in general, the studios, everyone needs to, if we really care about it, not just say we care about it, but actually work towards it. And so, perhaps all of the hoopla this year will trigger some action. But maybe not. I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: No person of color not only for best director, no person of color, as you point out, for best actor, best actress, best supporting actress, best supporting actor.
AVA DUVERNAY: This year.
AMY GOODMAN: This year.
AVA DUVERNAY: This year. In past years we’ve had it. But the bottom line is, I don’t think the question is so much about the awards; the question is: Why was Selma the only film that was even in the running with people of color for the award? You know what I mean? I mean, why are there not—not just black, brown people? You know what I mean? Asian people, indigenous people, representations that are more than just one voice, just one face, just one gaze? So, for me, it’s much less about the awards and the accolades, because, literally, next year no one cares. Right? I can’t even tell you who won the award for whatever three years ago. I don’t know.
AMY GOODMAN: What are the obstacles in the way?
AVA DUVERNAY: The obstacle, it is systemic. It’s systemic. It’s a system that’s been set up in a certain way. Times have changed, ideas have matured, and the system might not have caught up with that or stayed up with that. But you have very conscious people, very, you know, liberal people, very progressive people within the Academy. I’m a member. I was invited a couple of years ago. My black cinematographer, Bradford Young, was invited this year. There’s an attempt, but, you know, like I said, it needs to be articulated and followed up on. I think the thing that is challenging is when people talk about it should happen, but then there’s no follow up to that. So the hope is, with Cheryl Boone Isaacs, who’s the new president of the Academy, and some other people there who are really intentional about wanting to see just an opening up—it’s not about Selma. Maybe people just didn’t like it. You know what I mean? Maybe they just didn’t like it. But it’s really more about Selma shouldn’t have been the only hope for faces of color in this kind of celebration of film.
I do want to point out that Ava brought up more ethnicities than just black performers. That’s what I really appreciated. It’s not just a battle for one race to get proper recognition, it’s a battle for anyone who isn’t white / seen through the lens.
”What bothers me is this “quota” system the Oscars seem to have.”
Well, with an all-white slate, they sure didn’t use it this year. 😉
”But the Emmys are no better.”
There’s certainly room for improvement. It’s 2015, and no black woman has EVER won a Primetime Emmy for Best Actress in a Drama. Only one black man has EVER won a Primetime Emmy for Best Actor in a Comedy: Robert Guillaume (1985). Only one black woman has EVER won a Primetime Emmy for Best Actress in a Comedy: Isabel Sanford (1971). Sound dismal? It’s even worse for Latinos, Asian-Americans, Native Americans, etc. At least, there was some progress for blacks at the recent SAG Awards with Viola Davis, Uzo Aduba and the multiethnic ensemble of ”Orange Is the New Black.” (And just for the record, the British Indian actress Archie Panjabi has been nominated 3 times for an Emmy, and won in 2010 for ”The Good Wife.”)
”There is little passion for diversity when it comes to, Hispanics, or Asians.”
I’ve written about the sucky track record that the Academy has in recognizing Asian actors. Even when the movies are Oscar-winners or nominees for Best Picture, like ”The Last Emperor,” ”Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon,” ”Slumdog Millionaire” or ”Life of Pi,” its casts are screwed out of any nominations.
There is little passion for diversity when it comes to, Hispanics, or Asians. This time period is marinated in divisive black/white politics, truly unfortunate.
^^
Was glad to see Gina Rodriguez win at the GG. That started me watching Jane the Virgin. Black Americans are at the vanguard of knocking down the doors and screaming the loudest about Inequality and unfairness. The other races / nationalities of people pretty much just sit aside and watch.
What bothers me is this “quota” system the Oscars seem to have. One black actor out of five. One black-theme movie out of 6 or 7. One black actress in the supporting actress category out of five.
Surely in the past few years there have been more than one black actor who was worthy. I can think of (my fave) Chadwick Boseman in Get on Up. Why couldn’t HE have been nom’d along with David in any of the award shows – including GG.
But the Emmys are no better. There are some terrific (black/ Asian/Hispanic) actors in TV shows and just watch — I betcha. Almost no one of color will be nom’d for acting. Oh maybe one or two. So Hollywood as a whole has a race problem – just recognizing that people of color do good work on TV and movies.
For example, Mike Colter in the Good Wife. Archie Panjabi in the Good Wife. Some of the (trashy) actors on Empire. I betcha Emmy totally ignores them.
I agree with the poster who stated that, “lack of diversity,” means a lack of black people,at least in Hollywood. There is little passion for diversity when it comes to, Hispanics, or Asians. This time period is marinated in divisive black/white politics, truly unfortunate.
Really impressed by her, her attitude to the whole Oscars gig, and just her point of view on the film industry as it stands. She is one intelligent woman and I look forward to what she has to say, both behind and in front of the camera.
When people say “lack of diversity” they mean only black people.
I really liked Ava’s responses, she’s a rational, sensible, calm person. It would be a lovely treat to see her walk across the stage to accept her Oscar one day.
I hope I’m still alive to see it.
What a smart woman. I’m really looking forward to see Selma. I haven’t had a chance to check out Middle Of Nowhere.
She’s amazing and her film, definitely, was shortchanged. Good to see she doesn’t take the whole hoopla that seriously and I really believe her about it.
Jim, I think what’s interesting about what DuVernay says though is that apparently in October she was telling people that she didn’t expect to be a nominated director this year so the screener issue now becomes the issue of whether or not Paramount and DuVernay were ever trying to position Selma as an awards contender in the first place.
You can blame the Academy, but the Selma marketing department has to share in that blame. I think they did a very poor job of getting screeners out. Yes, they did get out some, but in my opinion, far to late and should have sent to some of the other groups to attempt to get more buzz going.
Ugh, Ava is such a gem. Love her. Her eloquence doesn’t begin and end in interviews, you also see it in her films and in the performances she gets out of her actors. Incredible.
Ava got it right: “Why was SELMA the only film that was even in the running with people of color for the award?” That’s the main question for Hollywood to answer…
But on the other hand: Stop talking about “Oscar Apathy” or “Oscar Incompetence” – cos SELMA was not snubbed (in which categories, topping which artists?). If it was as vibrant and pounding as its trailer was, maybe… But the movie was obviously not finished when it was released in December only five months (!!!) after filming began, and it doesn’t feel complete to me after second viewing.
The Academy selects their favorites every year and picks unique films as 12 YEARS or BEASTS or DJANGO or PRECIOUS for major categories… to condemn thousands of Academy members for not top-ranking DuVernay’s mildly electrifying biopic, seems wrong to me.
Very nice!
Tony Revolori was fine, but I don’t necessarily think he should have been nominated. Riz Ahmed, though, should definitely have been in the discussion, at least…
VERY good interview. Bravo.
Oh god! LOVE her!!!!
Ben, you made very good points! Tony Revolori and Riz Ahmed would’ve been great Oscar contenders. And they were nominated … elsewhere. Revolori was part of the SAG Ensemble for ”Budapest” and up for Young Actor at Broadcast Film Critics. Ahmed was nominated for Supporting Actor by the Independent Spirit Awards and the London Critics Circle, as well as the Gotham Awards’ Best Breakthrough Actor. As statistics show, the Academy membership is largely an old boys’ network, so I’m sure it was much easier for them to mark their ballot for a fellow old boy (and Oscar winner) Robert Duvall, than it was to mark their ballots for Revolori or Ahmed. The irony is that Hollywood is thought to be ”liberal,” but it took 86 years before a movie about blacks won Best Picture. And when a gay love story, like ”Brokeback Mountain,” swept most all the precursor awards, old-boy Oscar voters like Tony Curtis and Ernest Borgnine unabashedly boasted that they wouldn’t watch it, let alone vote for it. Sadly, they weren’t alone in their homophobia.
” the question is: Why was Selma the only film that was even in the running with people of color for the award?” – EXACTLY. Bravo. Aside from “Selma” what other film was really on the radar this year made by or starring non-whites? I’ve heard great things about “Dear White People,” but no one was talking about that.
Last year, when 12 years won, where the racism was? Maybe they just didn’t like it…
That’s flirtation, not a putdown.
Ben, are you single?
I really like the point/acknowledgment she makes at the end. Paraphrasing: “Maybe they just didn’t like it [Selma//although how could they not? But, morons]] but the real issue is why was that the only movie with/about minorities.” Exactly.
I wasn’t that bothered by the exclusion of The Butler as Sasha was last year–I just thought the movie was too contrived and not deep. But to so completely ignore the beautiful Fruitvale Station? And at least last year they had 3 options to choose from. But one this year? Ugh
Can’t wait to see what she and Oyelowo do on the Hurricane Katrina project. She’s fearless taking on these big set pieces that reach beyond the standard epic film.
Also, with all due respect to those who say there is a problem with Hollywood as a whole…well of course. Producers are mostly in the business to make money, and handsome white male stars like Bradley Cooper still sell the most tickets. In fact, there remains a major race problem with the country as a whole, Hollywood is no better, no worse (maybe a tad better). This is obvious. But its the self-appointed job of the Academy to select the best, the films and performances that rise to art. Its truly a shame they couldn’t find it in themselves to look past the good but inferior work of Bradley Cooper to fit in worthier David Oyelowo (and Jake and Ralph and Timothy and Brendan and Tom Hardy), but they weren’t looking. And its a shame they couldn’t look past the obvious with only-ok Robert Duvall to nominate Riz Ahmed or Tony Revolori instead, both far more deserving. The Academy is supposed to be, well, an “Academy”! Better! More prescient of what truly has a living and lasting value.
The Academy showed their true conservative colors when they snubbed Brokeback Mountain when everyone else embraced it as best of 2005. In 1989, Do the Right Thing won Best Picture in Los Angeles, was a runner-up in NY, a Globe nominee, but snubbed by the Academy. Now, “Do” is ranked one of the 100 greatest American films, not just be AFI, but by the very international and prestigious 2012 Sight & Sound poll (and I have to believe Brokeback will make the AFI 100 in 2017, now that most of America is ok with gay marriage; 2005 things were different). I can go on (and on). The point is, its extremely rare for the Academy to be ahead of the curve. Most liberal-minded Oscars fans breathe a sigh of relief when they manage to keep up with the politics of the day, much less set trends. This year, the Globes and many critics embraced Ava. Precedents usually dictated the nominations, and Ava was certainly far ahead of Bennett Miller and Morten Tyldum in that regard (and on par with Wes Anderson; she wasn’t named on as many critics lists, but she won several prizes (and not just black critics). The precedent was there for the nomination. Personally, I preferred Grand Budapest Hotel and Imitation Game to Selma, but that’s not the point. Its a question of what the industry AND critics think, Ava was robbed, and it smacks of racism to me. Its the type of racism that Shakespeare discussed in Julius Caesar: “its not that I love you less, but its that I love me more”. The old boy Academy directors, who usually do the best among the nominators, disappointed big time, they stayed with their own demographic for less acclaimed fare. The Guilds may not have received the screeners, but the Academy members did.
Ava is a class act all the way. It really is a shame she wasn’t nominated.
While I agree with virtually everything she said, I would offer that there were many other people of color/minorities not in Selma who were worthy of nominations, more so than some of those nominated. In Supporting Actor alone, I’d have nominated any of the following over Robert Duvall:
Tony Revolori – The Grand Budapest Hotel
Riz Ahmed – Nightcrawler
and even Tyler Perry – Gone Girl (he didn’t do much but he did it well; Duvall is a great actor but The Judge is not his finest hour)
Maybe they weren’t on the so-called “running”, but why not? In the case of Riz and Revolori, I’d contend it wasn’t just on account of lack of star power, but because they were likely overlooked as one-hit wonders, as minorities.
Also, while I think the Academy did well with Best Actress (glad about the inclusion of Marion Cotillard; this shouldn’t have even been a question mark), I think Gugu Mbatha-Raw should have been a more serious contender for Belle (certainly more than Amy Adams or Jennifer Aniston!), her performance should have challenged Felicity Jones for the 5th spot. She’s a major new talent, the performance was there, but supporters were not to the extent she deserved. Why not? The Academy certainly embraced pretty Jennifer Lawrence when she emerged with Winter’s Bone. Perhaps they still shy away too quickly from people named Gugu.
Excellent interview. I agree with all her points, particularly the systemic problem with Hollywood as a whole.
that’s brilliant. exactly why we need more black women in the Academy.
You have to work to become an inclusive organization. It doesn’t just happen by doing the same thing you have always done no matter how good the members as a whole may be. The Academy is hiding behind claims of being a meritocracy, a red flag for anybody paying attention. I have heard many smart, otherwise progressive people justify their privileges by saying their institutions are meritocracies. Its bullshit of course.
It’s ridiculous that these men invested with so much credibility do not make out their ballots based on inclusive values. If they have not seen awards worthy work by women and minorities, they should ask why not, and correct their deficiency before voting. It’s what grown ups do.
Seriously, fifty years after the civil right movement it is just ridiculous that the Academy has not fixed this and fixed it a long time ago. They are deserving of all the criticism they have already received, and more.
She came off extremely well in her answers on the Academy Awards. No complaining, no asking for pity, instead reasoned and practical. I’m excited to see what’s next for her.
Just watched the entire 60 min interview. Ava DuVernay is fantastic. I’m really excited about her future.
Amy Goodman is one of the best journalist in the world.