Sarah Koenig today updated fans of the wildly popular, game-changing podcast series Serial with an update on the new shows, yet another award they won and the recent news about the case against Adnan Syed. Syed was the subject of the podcast and is currently serving a life sentence, 15 years in, for the murder of his ex-girlfriend, 17 year-old Hae Min Lee.
While there have been plenty of websites salivating over the recent update on Syed’s case, including Huffington Post, The Frisky, and a few others, there is still a glaring flaw in the story that began with Serial and continues with the media covering the story.
What was never covered? That this was a domestic violence case. Violence against women is and has always been off the charts, particularly in relationships. Usually there is prior abuse but in this case there wasn’t any. Or was there? Serial left out almost every single piece of evidence that pointed to Syed as someone who was possessive, controlling and unable to let go of Hae Min Lee. Koenig left it out probably because she didn’t want to incite a mob but it’s something the media has never covered. They treat this case like your standard wrongful conviction case, like The Thin Blue Line or the Memphis Three. In fact, the case against Syed is strong. The evidence overwhelming. Why isn’t anyone in the media talking about this?
When the website The Intercept covered the story from a different angle, two of its reporters Natasha VC and Ken Silverstein found that the state indeed had a strong case. They interviewed the prosecutor, Kevin Urick, and the state’s witness, the one upon whom everyone freely lays blame, Jay Wilds. Once it was known that Glenn Greenwald’s site was defending the state and not the victim, Adnan Syed, the two were put through turmoil and resigned. That’s how badly the media wants this to be — NEEDS THIS TO BE — a wrongful conviction case. The thing is, okay, if that’s so, show me. So far, no one – not the lawyers on Undisclosed (the self-appointed defense team’s biased podcast that is working to sway public opinion and rip apart the case), not Koenig’s Serial. After all of this time, Asia McClain is what they’re going with. That and Adnan Syed never being given the chance to appeal his case.
You have to do some digging on your own because you won’t find it listening to Serial (unless you listen multiple times and carefully). You have to read the trial transcripts and pore over the interviews. You have to look logically at what happened that day, where the cell phone pinged (butt dial my ass) and who lied about what. Further complicating matters is that there are many missing pages from the transcripts that many have been trying to obtain to fill the gaps. These have yet to be released and there is some speculation that they are being deliberately withheld to mitigate potential damage until the courts work through this latest appeal. Maybe there is nothing on the missing pages. Maybe there is something. With this case, the more you read the more damning the case against Adnan Syed becomes. Most people don’t know this. The journalists writing their updates stories on or about the case certainly don’t know this.
What is unforgivable both in Serial’s coverage of the story and in the recent coverage by the media is to overlook what likely caused Lee’s death and many women and girls just like her.
Here is what Serial just put up on their website about the Syed update:
Adnan appealed the circuit court’s decision to the Maryland Court of Special Appeals, and was due to have a hearing next month. But last week, the Court of Special Appeals essentially paused the case, saying that Adnan can ask the circuit court to re-open his post-conviction proceeding so he can present a new statement from Asia. In January of this year, after Serial finished airing, Asia reiterated in an affidavit that she’d seen Adnan at the public library on the day Hae Min Lee went missing in 1999. And she also stated that Kevin Urick, a prosecutor, had discouraged her from testifying at Adnan’s post-conviction hearing. “Urick convinced me into believing that I should not participate in any ongoing proceedings,” Asia says in the affidavit.
Once again, Serial talks about Asia McClain without bringing up the contradictory evidence that she says, on Serial, “I would not have remembered if not for the snow.” She then adds “It was the first snow of the year.” Well, it didn’t snow on January 13th. There was an ice storm in the early morning hours of the 14th but no one would have noticed it on the 13th, certainly not waiting in the library. The first snow of the year and also a day school was closed was the week before, January 8th.
Serial did not check the weather before recording episode 1 and only updated their website to report on the weather. Even they conclude it probably wasn’t the 13th, yet no mention of that here on Koenig’s update which seems to suggest that Serial is responsible for the swaying of public opinion and/or pressure on the courts to allow McClain’s testimony to be examined.
Even more problematic for McClain as a witness, though, and the prosecutors have made this abundantly clear in their response to the recent inclusion of McClain, her testimony was conditional. She made it clear numerous times that she would only testify in Adnan’s favor if she knew for a fact he was not guilty. She offered her “help.” Yeah, no. The truth doesn’t work that way. You were there, you weren’t. You saw him, you didn’t.” She was such an unreliable witness, Syed’s defense attorney would have been a rookie to put her on the stand. The prosecution would have eviscerated her.
And finally, McClain might have even seen Syed in the library – that doesn’t exonerate him from having murdered Hae Min Lee. They don’t want to find something to exonerate him. They don’t need to. They merely have to show that he did not get a fair trail and hopefully get him out of jail.
Whether he gets out of jail or not is not my concern, personally. I do care about the truth and I do care about the murder of a promising, intelligent young 17 year-old. And I do think Serial and every piece of mainstream media coverage that has come after it has ignored what very likely happened to Hae Min Lee and continues to happen to women all over the world every minute of the day.
Here are the pieces of the story Serial left out, inexplicably, and what everyone else is leaving out – completely ignoring the dynamics that might have led up to the murder.
In order to find proper coverage of the relationship I had to dig down deep in the main Serial Reddit sub to find a post that lays out things pretty clearly – a statement by “Debbie”–
Adnan was very over protective of Hae. He never made her sustain from seeing her friends but he did suggest she spent more time with him. He wanted to know where she was going, when she was going, who was she with, almost like he was her father.
From Hae’s Diary:
The second thing is the possessiveness. Independence (indiscernible). I’m a very independent person. I rarely rely on my parents. Although I love him, it’s not like I need him. I know I’ll be just fine without him, and I need some time for myself and (indiscernible) other than him. How dare he get mad at me for planning to hang with Aisha?
Serial leaves out “possessiveness” when covering this. Koenig writes it off by saying Hae then says “he brought carrot cake!” In every instance where she could have told Hae’s story a little better she deflects any possible suggestion that he was a controlling, possessive kid who could not handle his girlfriend dumping him for an older man.
Serial also leaves out that Hae once hid from Adnan and had a teacher lie for her when he showed up looking for her. She was due to work with the teacher but opted out, trying to avoid Adnan. The teacher, by the way, is never mentioned on Serial at all, nor is any of her testimony.
Even with all of that deflection, though, Serial cannot exonerate Adnan Syed. Everything they checked checks out. They flail around at the end with Nisha call, finding some tiny print that YES, maybe it could be a butt dial for over two minutes. That is just one improbability. To find Syed not guilty you have to accept the least probable situation all the way down the line. No one has yet calculated the percentages on that but I’m guessing they would be up there with getting struck by lightning.
As a fan of Serial I am so amazed and appreciative that Sarah Koenig kicked ass as she did. As a mother, a woman and a feminist I’m heartbroken that they could leave out something so important as Adnan’s behavior leading up to the murder. While it started out telling Adnan Syed’s story it never adequately told Hae Min Lee’s. They tried but never got there. They owed it to Lee’s family to bring up the issue of domestic violent homicide – to even use those two words together on the podcast. They never did.
These are important words to “leave in” considering the prosecution thought of this as a “domestic violence case” but how many listeners of Serial got that? How many reporters writing their update stories the case even bother including that? Adnan is treated as the victim again and again.
Because public opinion is shaped by the media, and the media wants this to be a wrongful conviction case, this story will keep rolling along until the public gets what it wants. Adnan Syed’s verdict will be overturned, he’ll go free. Sarah Koenig and Serial will take partial credit. Rabia Chaudry and her Undisclosed podcast will take the rest of it. Fan letters will pour in from all over the world. Syed will be on every network news programs – morning, noon and night. This is the direction the story wants to go in.
It doesn’t want to go in the direction of the even bigger tragedy. Probably the most thorough read on this has been covered by only one person, as far as I can tell, and that is Ann Brocklehurst who wrote “Serial podcast rehabilitated a schoolgirl’s murderer, so where’s the feminist outrage?” Read it.
Where is the feminist outrage? Completely missing in action.
Are you serious with this article?? You said absolutely nothing!!! What a joke!! Who knew Hae was dead? Jay Who knew where the car was? Jay. Who knew where she was buried? Jay. What position she was lying in? Jay. Who disposed of their clothes? Jay. Who wiped prints off the shovels? Jay. Who’s shovels were they? Jay’s. Yet you think Adnan is guilty?? In Adnan’s first interview with the police he admitted he did ask Hae for a ride. If he committed the murder, do you think he’s going to say yes to that? He only tried to change his answer later once he realized that he was a suspect and could possibly be charged. Nothing linking Adnan to the crime except Jay. The one who has lied the most through the whole investigation. But let’s believe him when he said that Adnan killed Hae. What the hell is wrong with people?
Well Jay was with adnan most of the day. Even rabia quit with Jay because if jays guilty so is Adnan. How convenient he gives him his car and phone. The only untruth is jays involvement. I guarantee he knew what was going down. Did he think it was all talk ? Possibly but he knew more than he let on and they planned it. Jay the helper. He minimized that role
I’m tired of “possessiveness” being used as evidence of murderous tendencies in this case. All of my boyfriends in high school were a little possessive. That’s what high school hormonal love often was. They were all a little jealous too. I’m sure I was that kind of girlfriend back then as well. Mild character flaws don’t make a person a greater candidate for murder.
Nor does it absolve him of wrong doing. And one looks at the totality of evidence, not one cherry picked idea. This author is simply showing a wider picture of the case – and the victim deserves this. The media is somehow trying to shape legal scrutiny and testimony – that is for he courts not money making individuals and media networks and outlets to do. By the way getting off on technical legal scrutiny is not the same as being innocent. One person not interviewed or changing her story doesn’t make 99% of other evidence to without merit.
This article is quite out of date, particularly now that Asia testified and her testimony held up in court quite well. Her memory held up under cross examination. I’d recommend listening to the new updates in Serial, if not also listening to the Undisclosed podcast.
lol. No it didn’t. She said she saw him between 2:15 and 2:35 pm. Lol. Hae min left the school at 3. That is plenty of time for him and his despicable buddies to do what they do per his instruction. What a horrible person he is. This screwed him. His own defense didn’t want her testimony at the original trial because it is not a good alibi. GOod riddance I hope he enjoys his stay.
I don’t think you were paying attention to the prosecution; they said she was dead by 2:36pm. It’s contradicted by alibi witnesses and forensic evidence.
Wonderful article, I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head. I don’t totally agree this is about domestic violence but it is a strong component people are ignoring because we all want to believe.
In retrospect, that would have been a better premise for Koenig to revolve the season around, bringing to light what happens in kids lives and how their choices, the secrets their parents make them keep can end. The subsequent repression leading to the inability to get council from those who know best and how all of this teenage angst can end tragically. Unfortunately that or any number of valid constructs were not used and we are poorer for it.
I hate what I’m about to say but I’m now leaning towards he did it and more scathingly, I think Koenig knows it. I caught up with the follow up episodes this week and what a difference in tone and cadence. Emphasizing how its still a conundrum yet seemly hopeful for Adnan. Koenig set this up perfectly from episode one, spending a great deal of time making sure you knew that everything in this case was a toss up and it would drive you insane.
Yet the new follow ups are painfully biased if you really look at it in the eye. Anything that was pro-Adnan was given such inflection, such hopeful tones and yet, anything the defense brings up to directly dismiss Asia’s claims or the letter timeline are met with “Well, ums” and “it kinda, sorta … but I don’t think”. Not to mention the relax, jovial tones between her and Dana, we are talking about life and death here.
Go listen to the day 3 trial episode on their website and scroll to 8:35 when they talk about the detectives notes about when the letters went out. After listening to these 3 latest episodes something in my brain “paused” and all the doubts I had listening to the first season hit me square in the face, their were their the entire time, I just wanted to believe.
We all want to believe, but the proof and the presenter need to be pure, to never “give us pause” as Koenig likes to say. That doesn’t mean they have to be perfect but there is too much pause now. I’m willing to take the good and the bad and evaluate it, I don’t want to demonize her. Many years ago I watched the documentary “Fat, Sick and Nearly Dead” and in the end it convinced me to start juicing, changed my life. But it nearly didn’t, it was obvious this man was filming a protracted ad for Breville juicers, especially with his dollar grabs revolving around it after the “documentary”. A man from Australia with a 1 in a Million skin disease “bumps” into someone else with the same affliction in the heart of rural America and cures him with his juicer…. Give me the facts and at least give me a wink so we both acknowledge the truth and the reality. It was a good message, its a shame it might not be heard because we can’t trust the voice it comes from. (In the end I bought a Breville)
I wanted Adnan to be innocent. I don’t want to believe a kid did this, and lets remember that this is the context of all of this.
I wanted to believe a dirtbag, despot, rapist, someone who fits the profile who was already lost to society being the bad guy.
I wanted this country to show the world we could say we were wrong and correct it, especially for someone from Middle Eastern decent.
I wanted Serial to be a massive victory for justice, I wanted to know it could happen.
I did not want to make this about Koenig , I think Serial was a triumph, but the way she is going about it gives me great pause. This reopening, internationally of the Lee’s pain needs to be for a pure reason. Taking the time to meticulously follow the route between the school and the route the call logs described yet not looking up the weather until now is inexcusable, just as it’s implied his defense had no excuse not to pursue Asia from the beginning, except that was a judgement call made by a seasoned attorney (while flawed). This was a decision that informed the outcome of someone’s life, all she had to do was a Google search.
I need transcripts, unedited phone calls. I need to believe the narrative was sound.
There are too many moments when the interviews seemed to be getting to Adnan and the call was interrupted or the flow of the program suddenly moved away from it. I felt it when I was listening to it but I didn’t want to acknowledge it.
In the end, I feel I was fooled, not by Adnan or Koenig but by myself. I got caught up in the emotion of it all and made the Lee’s tragedy my entertainment. I’ve been skeptical of the other side too, wondering why the prosecutors were so adamant to stop this from going forward but in the end its apart of the same failing I’ve had the entire time, I did not look at it for what it was, what was rational.
The incredible string of events that would have had to have taken place to truly frame this boy are staggering.
Jay was clearly involved, his convoluted stories, his intimate knowledge only inform me the police and the prosecution know he was skirting the facts to give himself the best possible chance to make a deal and get clear from any real jail time.
Its more rational to believe Baltimore, an area with a horrific violent crime rate decided to dance a fine line and go with it, knowing it was the rational truth. It makes sense as to why the prosecution was so against looking at this again, the proverbial can of worms….
Asia is a poor witness, period. She does not present herself as someone looking to do the right thing. Nothing in her story or presentation tells me that.
Adnan was a jilted teenager, in love, living in secret. Suppressed by his family, surrounded by influences that ultimately pushed him to do this No alibi, no context to his actions that day, no outrage at his situation. I see him now as someone who has been free falling over a cliff for the last two decades with no hope, and all of a sudden a cloud appeared, thin, insubstantial but possibly something he could land on safely. So he stares at it in stunned silence, knowing if he makes any sudden movement it might dissipate and never return.
Unless we want to believe it was some other random act of violence that was the period on a long string of words telling the story of the unluckiest innocent boy and the luckiest killer in known history, it’s rational that he’s guilty. What’s not rational after looking back at it is how Serial was designed to make you think otherwise.
If Koenig is prepared to profit from this, she needs to do everything in her power to do it properly. I don’t think she went into this with anything other than an idea and curiosity, they came to her. But now that she’s taken the mantle, she owes it to us, the Lee’s and all other Journalists to do it right.
If it’s domestic violence for a partner to ask their significant other to “spend more time” with them, then just about every person in America is both a victim and perpetrator of domestic violence. I don’t know anything about this case, whether he’s guilty or innocent, but if the author of this piece is branding their relationship as one of domestic violence based on a “spending more time together” request and other comments she read on reddit, well that’s just about the stupidest thing I’ve ever read.
There is a fine line between wanting, needing and obsessing. As someone who claims not to know anything about the case but leans towards the side of the person not brutally murdered, I’m sure you know nothing about putting yourself between someone obsessed and someone wanting to move on with their lives.
Being a white male is a great thing….. except for the fact the world is out to get us at every turn but every once and a while we need to stop talking like we own the world and just observe it for what it is.
Don’t listen to all the haters in your comments section, I thought your article was excellent and agree with everything you said. The proAdnan crowd are holding everyone else up to intense scrutiny and allowing him get the benefit of the doubt time and time again. Your comment about accepting the least probable answer for every question being on par with the odds of getting struck by lightning is excellent also.
Adnan did it. He had a motive, he had ‘going to kill’ written on a break up not from Hae, he comes from a culture that promotes honor killing, an accomplice fingered him and knew details about the crime that no one else would, his ‘alibi’ if that is what you would call Asia, is unreliable and his memory is severely lacking unless it somehow benefits his innocence. Please pray that this misogynistic murderer stays exactly where he belongs.
Honestly I kinda think Adnan did do it. That being said you article does nothing to prove that to me. I dont know if you know much about teenagers especially teenagers who come form strict households, but they tend to want to know everything about their BF/ GFs. Young love is engulfing. From an outsiders point of view it would look possessive. Most teenagers are possessive. Even more so when coming from stricter families because seeing each other evolves knowing each others movements. Spending time together somehow becomes more precious because its forbidding. Hae hiding from him can also be a case of I just dont want to deal with him today. Her dairy shows they had these kind of ups and downs. Which is something teenagers do. This kinda of behavior seems insanely normal.
I came to this article because I wanted to know if there was anything the podcast left out. I was disappointed as you offered nothing new. I felt the Podcast did a great job of presenting both sides of the case. It was base of the podcast alone that I felt maybe he did do it. If Serial is as bias as you say I would have never gotten a chance to come to that conclusion.
If you really wanted to point to reason why he could have done it you should focus more on how its possible the murder didn’t happen at Best Buy. That if the murder happened at the library Asia testimony would be pointless. Or about how Adnan never seem to hold much stock in Asia letters. Maybe that was because he didn’t want to divert attention to the Library at the time, something that now would not matter because any evidence that could have been found there is long gone.
See what I did there. That’s looking at the case objectively and not trying to turn it into a platform for domestic violence.
this article was just so painful to read. the author mentions Serial, the audience, and the mainstream media being biased towards the case while displaying a painfully ironic amount of bias herself. while being a possessive significant other is definitely unhealthy it does not necessarily lead to murder. that would be like saying someone that dislikes their neighbor who happens to be a different ethnicity is a horrible racist and probably thinks Hitler had the right idea.
I’m not saying Adnan is innocent; I’m not saying he’s guilty. what I will say is that I’m not a goddamn detective so I won’t pretend to know what I’m talking about.
we get it. you’re woman. we hear you roar. but even if this IS a case of domestic violence that doesn’t make it ANY more tragic that this innocent 17 year old girl died. if it was a 17 year old boy that died would you give a shit? would you write an article? would you take exception to the way the media has covered it? I think it’s just as disrespectful to this poor girl’s memory to use her death to further a feminist agenda as it is to use her death to boost ratings.
the bottom line is that an innocent girl was murdered and you used the sensationalism surrounding her death to push your own agenda. that’s disgusting.
Serial definitely included references to Adnand “hanging around too much”. They even referenced Adnand showing up for Hae’s slumber party. The reason they did not dwell on this is that Adnand never did anything violent. It is not relevant or interesting to go on and on about something that the mutual friends dismissed. There were no threats against the new boyfriend recorded. And if Adnand WAS so possessive, you would expect the violence to be directed against the new boyfriend, not Hae.
>And if Adnan WAS so possessive, you would expect the violence to be directed against the new boyfriend, not Hae.
That’s not at all how domestic abuse works. An abusive man is usually too cowardly to confront another man (someone who is actually capable of standing up for himself and kicking the abuser’s ass). Which is why they take their kicks on emotionally and physically abusing someone who is less likely/unable to fight back.
So all the fixation and anger would indeed be on Hae – “How DARE you defy me, how DARE you leave me,” etc etc etc.
I am a survivor of multiple abusive relationships with men who is now a domestic violence advocate working with thousands of women. You are absolutely on point and very well versed about how domestic violence works. Abusive males almost NEVER target other males that they’re jealous of.They almost ALWAYS target the woman they are involved with to be punished (there are men who verbally abuse/slap/rape their girlfriends or wives just because another man gawaked at her, cowardly refusing to confront the disrespectful male). They attack her because a) they are misogynists and b) simply because they know she’s about one-third his strength so he knows he won’t be beaten up, i.e. as you said, he’s a coward.
I felt the same as you when I first heard it, seemed like they covered it and it was nothing but the teacher’s story about hiding her is troubling. If you want to look at him and who he hangs out with, he’s a player. He’s not going to go after the other guy playing the game.
This kid, like many others, especially in the 90’s loved living in the “thug life” wannabe mode, but lets face it, he wasn’t. He had all that rage but not the bravery, so if he did do it, this makes plenty of sense.
I also had the problem with Adnan calling him “pathetic” during the trial. If your innocent, you say “Why are you doing this to me, why, why why??????” Pathetic is something one bad guy says to another who rats on them, “You claimed to be hardcore but look how you punked out… pathetic”
I think you really need to consider how (as others have said) teenagers act. Having a 17 year old daughter all of this is completely ‘normal’ behaviour.
The girls get from their friends “oh you’re going off with your boyfriend, why do you not spend time with your friends anymore?” and from their boyfriends it’s either “I want to see you, spend more time with me.” or they’re completely disinterested with very little in between. There’s nothing unusual here in that. Nor in Hae hiding from him. I did the same to my high school boyfriend!
Also, Adnaan has had shown no violent tendencies even in the pressure cooker of a super max prison. So while I understand the writer of this article’s perspective I actually think they’re on the wrong track.
I listened to Serial and was 80% sure Adnaan was innocent. Following Jay’s intercept interview I’m 99% sure Adnaan is innocent. As, regardless of all that everyone is saying essentially Adnaan was convicted on a story and hearsay. I work in electronic engineering – cell phone ‘pings’ cannot be used to pinpoint location, they are not gps. Ultimately it terrifies me someone can be put in prison for life based on this. Also Hae’s family deserve justice.
Timeline in murder cases is everything. Especially Murder 1 convictions. Jay’s timeline is all over the place, who knows where he was or what he was doing after taking Adnan’s phone and car from 12-6 – then from 7-10. Adnan’s story is relatively simple, he was either at: school, library, track practice – during a certain time frame (12-6) Or 2 other places : Cathy’s , the mosque – during the 2nd time frames (6-10.) What this says is that someone is covering up where they were during these time frames, someone is lying, and usually the liar is the one with more to say.
I just don’t understand how any functioning human being could listen to Jay’s multiple descriptions of where he was, who he was with, what they were doing, during all these time frames, then look at the cell phone records and think any of it is tangible evidence against Adnan. It seems pretty clear cut to me, that Jay had more to do with this murder than anyone else. Why the police centered in on Adnan, and made the investigation about trying to corroborate Jay’s testimony with these phone records to implicate Adnan, instead of finding the truth, is just beyond me, and it shows the blatant focus on winning convictions in this Justice System than finding the truth the families involved deserve.
http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/
I get that but lets face it, he knew way more than he should have and their is not a wisp of a motive as to why he would have done it, alone at least. He was a wannabe gangster who got caught up in some real dirty work, not the pot dealing BS he was used to. Put him in-front of the cops and he buckled. I really think he had a moment of conscience and he was the one who called the cops. Unfortunately he thought he was slick and though he could get out of it without getting his hands dirty. The cops saw right through him and broke his bull down enough to get to the real story.
He knows too much, the only way I can believe he’s flat out framing him is someone, anyone can come up with some sort of motive.
There is motive for why he would have done it. Adnan’s strong “friendship” with Stephanie. I don’t know if you read the entire article.
Saying that he was “put in front of the cops and buckled” would make sense if we’re talking about small inaccuracies in the story, but that’s not the case. These are vast differences in what was happening, and what the cell records show, then this differences are changed not 1 not 2 but 3 or 4 times before trial, then at the trial it’s as if he’s had a chance to view the cell records and change his story and times to fit the narrative. It’s blatantly obvious that he’s lying about a lot of times and locations. And the part that’s most telling is the location of the murder and the “trunk pop.” He says he lied about the first location because he was afraid there might be cameras at the real location? why would he care about cameras if it was Adnan caught on camera committing the murder? Then he says he tells the truth about the location when Jenny tells him there’s no camera’s there.
I’m not saying Adnan is innocent, but usually when you’re telling the truth it’s very simplistic. “I was here, I was there at this time.” Not “we were here, no it was just me, no it was both of us, yeah it was 2pm, no it was 12pm, no it was 4:45pm, oh it was this mall, no this is where I saw it, yeah he told me about it at this place, no it was this place, yeah we were driving around smoking weed for 8 hours while in the midst of burying a body.”
It’s just a ridiculous amount of inaccuracies, and if you committed a crime, and new someone who was an easy target, whom you don’t really consider a close friend, this is a textbook way of pointing the finger, just throwing a ton of stories against the wall until 1 can closely match a timeline created by police, then you practice that story over and over again, tell it at trial, and get your conviction. The problem with that is when people decide to go back and listen to your first 4 stories, then listen to it change again when it tells it in 2015.
I don’t know how anyone can read what this guy had to say and put any kind of truth to it. It seems like we’ll never know what really happened to that girl, and that’s a disservice to her family.
The quotes from Hae’s diary seem like 90% of every high school relationship. State argues that she was dead by 2:36 but the author says, “And finally, McClain might have even seen Syed in the library .” That is called reasonable doubt. Jay’s story has changed many times because he is lying and it is hard to keep your story straight when it’s not true. Kevin Urick said in the intercept interview,
“Jay’s testimony by itself, would that have been proof beyond a reasonable doubt?” Urick asked rhetorically. “Probably not. Cellphone evidence by itself? Probably not.” But, he said, when you put together cellphone records and Jay’s testimony, “they corroborate and feed off each other–it’s a very strong evidentiary case.”
The state’s own cell expert is now saying that he shouldn’t have confirmed incoming calls as a way to verify location because of a AT&T cover sheet that was left off the records. If the cell records are thrown out and Asia is allowed to testify in a new trial. The state is going to have to change it’s whole timeline of events, and Jay will have to come up with yet another version of the story.
It is incredible how people mis-use data. This article is horrible.
This article has so many problems with it, I cannot understand. How do you write an article with wrong information? Just plain stupid.
Don’t really know how you can read Jay’s multiple interviews, then listen to his testimony, and the prosecutors version of the story, while also fact checking them with the phone records, and come to the conclusion that Jay is doing anything but lying, covering up where he was, what he was doing, who was calling and when. I mean, if Adnan murdered this girl, and enlisted his help with a couple phone calls, I don’t think it’d be that hard to articulate time frames in interviews. Jay’s time frames and locations don’t match, his stories don’t match with anything tangible. I don’t know if Adnan is innocent or not, but using this witness as evidence in Adnan’s guilt is farcical.
http://viewfromll2.com/2014/11/23/serial-a-comparison-of-adnans-cell-phone-records-and-the-witness-statements-provided-by-adnan-jay-jenn-and-cathy/
Interesting she claims it didn’t snow but Jay says there was snow on the ground when they were burying Hae. And of couse Hae was alive january 8th.
I’ve always been curious as to why everyone thinks it’s perfectly normal for Adnan to not remember one thing about the day, but everyone thinks it’s suspicious for the other parties to not have exact corroborating time stamps on every statement.
But please don’t take this to mean I feel one way or the other about the parties involved. I just think it’s hypocritical.
(and by “everyone” I mean public at large.” Because I know that the prosecution needs accurate details to prove one guilty, and the defense doesn’t, because the burden of proof is not theirs…)
Where were you that day?
I have no idea. Damn it. why don’t I have a cop to tell me what I’ve been up to so I don’t have to rely on vague, fallible, human memory? haha
Agreed! I never could swallow that he couldn’t remember the day. It was a few weeks, maybe 2 months later? The day the love of your life goes missing becomes a 9/11 moment in your head you play over and over and over again. His basic story is “Yeah, I knew after a few days it was serious but I basically haven’t given it that much thought so 2 months later the day is just a blur”. I bothers me that Koenig plays that up and he’s going to use it again if he gets a retrial but using the defense 20 years later that how could I remember a day 20 years ago doesn’t work when you couldn’t remember it 2 months after it happened.
Where were you when they were talking about possesive Adnan was ? Maybe you should listen a little closer. It’s definitely addressed.
And what is wrong with you trolls . Muslim does not equal criminal traditional Muslims are very peaceful people. In that same regard. White,stupid, uneducated, undisciplined, racist also = criminal . Please do your homework bc most certainly Christian = murderer and criminal. People are so ignorant smh.
Exactly Cara. This article is just dumb.
He was just going back to his Islamic roots! HE IS A FUCKING MUSLIM= CRIMINAL, RAPIST ETC. READ KORAN AND SEE ITS HATRED AGAINST THE WORLD AND WHAT IT IS THOUGHT! MOST CRIMES IN THE WORLD ARE DONE BY MUSLIMS !!!
I’ve flagged this message but it hasn’t been removed. Just more meaningless, vulgar graffiti
That is your argument for murder? He was possessive?
All based on one or two diary entries and a statement from “Debbie”. If anything the statement from Debbie helps to shed light on his behavior. He never stopped her from doing what she wanted, he just wanted to know the details.
Most teenage boys are possessive. Many teenage girls (and some boys too) will hide from someone that they just don’t want to talk too. I saw that sort of situation all the time when I was in high school.
Being possessive and jealous doesn’t make him a murderer. Did he ever hit her? Wouldn’t she put that in her diary?
At least the argument for his defense has something a little more substantial than what you are giving us.
Just what I was about to type.
You can’t use typical teen behavior as evidence of criminal intent.
I read this a lot from the Syed apologists and it always rubs me the wrong way. So what if they’re teenagers? The only difference between teenagers and adults is that teenagers have a little less impulse control, so maybe a possessive teenager might act on his possessiveness more than possessive adult might. MAYBE. The point is toxic relationships are no more excusable for teenagers than they are for adults. Possessive stalking teenagers aren’t the norm.
What rubs you the wrong way? My point was only that a teenager might get enraged when he sees his girlfriend chatting to another boy. This is merely evidence of teen insecurity, not evidence of nefarious intent. If a 47 year old man became enraged when he sees his girlfriend talking to another man—this could be a different situation. I think most observers of this trial would argue that possessiveness and a break-up do not constitute an argument for anything–other than Adnan was just like any other 17 year old boy.
Wow, you don’t even seem to realize that if a teenager goes into a jealous rage more readily than an adult, that means the teenager is MORE likely to engage in jealousy motivated violence, not LESS likely, as you seem to suggest…
Show me the statistics that teens commit more domestic violence than adults. You’re jumping to unfounded conclusions.
No I’m not, but you’re knocking down a strawman. Since you have no interest in achieving clarity in your arguments, I’ll do it for you. You have suggested here that teenagers are far more likely to be jealous and possessive than adults. In fact, you claim that’s normal behavior. Yet you also claim that these teenagers who are much MUCH more likely to be possessively jealous (according to you) are, at the same time, much LESS likely to act on that possessive jealousy in a violent manner, than adults. So when it’s advantageous for your (ultimately fallacious) argument, you claim teenagers have less impulse control than adults when it comes to possessive behavior in relationships, right up until violence occurs, which is when you do a 180 degree turn and decide that teenagers are much LESS likely to become violent under such circumstances, than adults. You’re just moving the goal posts around according to whatever you think helps your argument. And that results in your argument being a colossal contradiction. And the only way you think you can dig your way out of the hole of that conundrum is by shifting focus to someone else’s supposed argument (mine) which you end up strawmanning….
You’re putting words in my mouth. I have never made any of these claims. I merely pointed out that possessive and jealous feelings are common in 17 year old boys. Hell, all my friends were jealous and possessive. So was I. It’s a function of teenage insecurity. However, we didn’t go around beating people up when we saw them chatting to our girlfriends. It certainly isn’t proof of criminal intent, AS THIS WRITER CLEARLY IMPLIES.
Just for fun…let’s take another example. A very conservative person may consider Adnan to be a “drug addict” because he smoked weed every day. This person might say “well, he was engaged in criminal activity (drug use) so this could have easily have led to more criminal activity (violence)”. But the fact is 90 percent of teen boys in Baltimore probably smoke weed. So does this really prove anything? Is it shocking drug use or harmless behavior shared by a majority of teen boys. Does pot smoking lead to murder? Of course not.
The only straw here is between your ears.
Well I was hoping you’d be honest enough in this discussion to not have to quote your text point by point and respond to each point directly but I guess we’re going to have to go there afterall…
“You’re putting words in my mouth. I have never made any of these claims. I merely pointed out that possessive and jealous feelings are common in 17 year old boys.”
Ok so in the first sentence you say that you never made any of the claims I attributed to you, and then in the next sentence you reiterate one of those very claims.
“However, we didn’t go around beating people up when we saw them chatting to our girlfriends. Hell, all my friends were jealous and possessive. So was I. It’s a function of teenage insecurity. It certainly isn’t proof of criminal intent, AS THIS WRITER CLEARLY IMPLIES.”
The author of this article never claimed (or ‘clearly implied’) that Syed beat someone up after he saw his girlfriend chatting with that person. You’ve completely gone off the rails in regards to that honesty problem you have. If there ever had been a semblance of useful discourse coming from you, that time has passed. This will be the last post of yours I respond to.
I’m not sure what you hoped to achieve with your ‘example’ about smoking pot. If anything pot smoking could be used by Syed as an excuse for why his memory is so fuzzy about that particular day, and if he ever decides to admit guilt he could use thc intoxication as a defense. In any case, smoking pot is generally thought to not induce violent behavior, although it can induce paranoia in certain people whose personalities may be susceptible to it. Syed could use that as an excuse for his possessiveness, as well, if he hasn’t already. So pot smoking really helps Syed in many ways in this case, regardless of whatever you think a die-hard conservative who watched Reefer Madness a few too many times thinks about it.
Anyway, since you fail to understand (or pretend not to) why Syed’s possessiveness is important circumstantial evidence, I’ll explain it to you, but as I said, this will conclude my correspondence with you.
The reason it’s important circumstantial evidence is because someone was murdered. If you take individual behaviors out of context and isolate them from the events that followed, then you can effectively portray them as inconsequential. But when someone is murdered, it is prudent when looking for suspects to examine the disposition of the suspect to help establish motive. The reason you and your friends’ highschool possessiveness in romance is inconsequential is because, presumably, neither you nor your friends were ever accused of murder. Syed was accused of murder, so that means every aspect of his personality and behavior is to be scrutinized in order to ascribe motive. That’s because a murder investigation’s prime concern is to achieve clarity, unlike for example, Serial or Undisclosed, whose motive is to confuse.
BTW, it’s nice that you like your own posts. Self-esteem is great.
One thing I’d like to add is a little background about my position… A little over 20 years ago the OJ Simpson trial happened. I was in my mid-20s at the time and people were saying stuff like: “Just because he beat his wife doesn’t mean he killed her. Most guys who beat their wives don’t wind up killing them.” Which statistically is correct, I’m sure. And at the time, I thought OJ was innocent and I bought into that line of thinking, as ludicrous as it seems to me today. But I, like most people, was never taught how to think properly. I had to figure that out on my own in my 30s. If I had heard about the Syed case and Serial in my 20s, I’m sure I would have been thoroughly outraged along with the rest of the members of the Cult of Syed. When all you have to work with is a rudimentary understanding of deductive logic, with no exposure whatsoever to other types of informal logic, you use it as best you can, though, as you can see in my case with OJ Simpson, you can wind up with a completely irrational opinion that seems completely correct to you because you lack the ability to scrutinize effectively.
Thank you for that postscript. You obviously are not a wing-nut, like most comment posters on these blogs. But you insult people when you don’t agree with what they say, and you take this stuff far too seriously. It’s an online comment area, not a PhD defense! And look at some of the bile you have spat out about your fellow citizens and your society. It’s pretty unpalatable and very misanthropic.
I never claimed that possessive behavior could not be circumstantial evidence. It could be, if it was unusual or excessive. But in this case, based on Koenig’s research, it did not appear that there was evidence to support this. That’s all I pointed out. The writer wants to turn this in to a domestic violence/abuse case when it is not.
Oh……and PS. you may want to drop the condescension if you want a respectful reply to your arguments.
And by the way, if social statistics are so important to you, where are your statistics that show deranged possessive behavior equates to normal teenage growing pains?
there are NO statistics that point to possessive behavior in teenagers leading to domestic violence or is there any connection between the two. Young women, according to ‘Buunke, Bram (1982). “Anticipated Sexual Jealousy: Its Relationship to Self-Esteem, Dependency, and Reciprocity.” Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin. 8: 310-316’ are more possessive then men, does that lead to more female violence against men? Nope, it does not so this article is completely rubbish to suggest a couple of questions about WHO she is going out with does not make Adnon possessive. A bit jealous perhaps, not possessive and certainly NOT violent. That being said, he probably killed her. The most obvious evidence is the fact that she LET someone she was FAMILIAR with INTO her car. A stranger would not be able to get into her car and commandeer it without a weapon and then NOT use the weapon to kill her. Makes no sense. Still just wanted to defend the accusations of what constitutes possessiveness.
Where did you get the impression that it is known that the victim let somebody into her car?
why would she let a stranger in the car? That doesn’t sync with her personality.
By the way, the statistic you quoted does not support your conclusions.
Listen to the truth and justice podcast episode 127 where he actually has the entire copy of Hae’s diary. She never paints Adnan as a crazy possessive boyfriend or ever mentions any type of domestic violence.
Really? I had to stop reading this. You are speculating more than Sarah is. At least she had the decency to leave her speculations out.
You also say that Serial “left” this information out. No. She talked about it. Still, you used it as click bait in your title.
Albeit, some very effectice clickbait (it lured me in)
This article is such b.s. It is incredible how people mis-use data. That in itself is a crime.
I think jealousy is a common element in young relationships. Teenagers don’t know how to navigate those emotions properly. I think a little jealousy in a 17 year old is a far cry from domestic abuse. And listening to some subsequent podcasts there are some really relevant details that have been left out, even from Serial. I would suggest listening to the Undisclosed podcast. Jay’s testimony seems to change in accordance with new information available to the police and there seems to be some guidance (via tapping, perhaps on a time line or map) in the audio recordings of the interrogations. I don’t know if Adnan did it or not, but there certainly wasn’t enough evidence to prove it. I also think the police were negligent and not interviewing her classmates and teachers for two months after her disappearance. People do not have good, detailed memories of what, at the time, is an ordinary day, and waiting so long certainly meant that they were never going to get a clear picture. The police seemed to only take testimony that substantiated their beliefs and disregard the rest (confirmation bias, or just trying to close the case?). Beyond that, there was another young girl from the same high school who was killed by strangulation. They never even considered it might be the same murderer. There’s just too much reasonable doubt to have convicted him.
This is not how the justice system is supposed to work. You’re basically claiming Adnan’s innocence needs to be proven. His guilt needs to be proven by the state beyond all doubt. Any evidence that isn’t absolutely rock solid SHOULD lead to a “not guilty” verdict. The state’s entire case was based on a testimony that kept changing and a call log that doesn’t match their timeline. Maybe he isn’t innocent, but he certainly isn’t guilty either.
I was looking for another pov for this story and came across this article. Honestly I am always speculative on these crime stories and tend to think the state usually gets it right and the media is just looking for story. But this article is ridiculous I completely agree with Michael on this, do you even know how the justice system is supposed to work? It is the states job to prove “beyond reasonable doubt” that Adnan is guilty and I have heard enough to have reasonable doubt despite having read over court documents, and tried to find articles on the states side (although hard to do because people dont like to read about how nothing went wrong) to convince me otherwise. It seems like more and more people are being judged guilty as soon as they are accused by the state instead of “presumed innocent” until proven in a court of law otherwise.
You are so right Nick, it’s so obvious the jury was under the control of MK Ultra operatives, most likely conditioned as children to ‘awaken’ when certain code words were spoken during the trial they were assigned to be jurors at decades later when they were to become adults. As soon as they hear their code words a switch goes off in their brains and their MK Ultra programming kicks in. And the program must have looked a lot like this:
10 Guilty!
20 GOTO 10.
“Any evidence that isn’t absolutely rock solid SHOULD lead to a “not guilty” verdict.”
‘rock solid’ is not a legal burden of proof for circumstantial evidence. The very nature of circumstantial evidence is that it is not ‘rock solid’, like for example, video or dna evidence might be. But circumstantial evidence is and always has been enough to render a guilty verdict, if the judge or jury deciding the verdict find the evidence to be compelling enough. Apparently you don’t find the circumstantial evidence compelling enough to convict, but you also didn’t spend hours upon hours over many days intensely scrutinizing the evidence like the jury did…
Domestic violence is no joke but calling this domestic violence is clearly a result of your lack of understanding in how skewed this case is and that your “information” about his demeanor comes from information that was biased and prejudiced _prior_ to your learning about it. I am a raging feminist. This was, in my educated opinion, not domestic violence but indeed violence against women. The reason serial did not take this route is because the route isn’t there. Normal teenage relationships experience possessiveness and all kinds of other behaviours where kids are learning to be in relationship. You can’t take those lines from her diary, now so out of context and in hindsight, with skewed information and draw conclusions — but you did and you are and I think you are wrong.
This article was awful.. Lol @ “feminist outrage”
Why do you have a platform to write this nonsense? Why did this garbage show up on the first page when I was using Google to put faces to the names of all involved?
“Where is the feminist outrage?” http://i.imgur.com/MoAQjf7.jpg
well you’re just using this case as a platform to raise awareness for domestic crimes. I get it, it’s a good cause. But how are you so categorically sure that he did do it? You don’t, there is reasonable doubt, the story changed every 10 minutes. The only thing that was consistent in Jays story was that he met Adnan that day. Times changed, he talked to officers unrecorded. then recorded. They helped him with getting legal assistant, the team that wants to put the guy away is actually helping him get away with it. See where it doesn’t add up? That right there is what boggles my mind, it has been handled so badly, they seem to have found a somewhat plausible agenda and have forced everything to fit it.
I personally believe both of them are lying, I honestly believe there is a third party that nobody seems to mention or care about much. That anonymous tip, that “asian” sounding voice, its astounding that that lead was dropped almost instantly. I would have chased that to the ends of the earth. That voice was a domino effect for EVERYTHING. Without it the police wouldn’t have gone to Jenn, which wouldn’t have led them to Jay and firmly put Adnan on their radar.
Another thing, Jay got away scott free. Yep, nothing. He helped bury a dead girl for fucks sake. Oh and in his second telling of the story he said Adnan had told him he was going to “Kill that bitch” but he didn’t do anything about it. He waited till Adnan then called him and asked him to help bury the body.
So no I don’t think Adnan should have been sent to prison based on the evidence given. It just wasn’t enough. They got the idea in their heads that he shame killed that girl. If you got into the mind of an Asian teenager breaking the rules to have sex. He wouldn’t kill the girl he did it with to hide it from his parents who already knew about her!
“Nisha Call” points to consider:
1) In every single police statement and testimony given by Jay and Jenn, Adnan called Jay after 3:40 pm.
2) Nisha call was at 3:32 pm
3) Nisha has always been very clear that the one and only time she spoke with Jay was in the evening when Adnan walked into adult video store when Jay was working. Jay didn’t start working at video store until Jan 31. Jay worked the night shift.
4) Every other call Adnan made to Nisha, based off phone logs from Adnan’s home and cell, were in the evening or on non-school days. In the 15 calls made to Nisha from the day they met (New Year’s Eve) until he was arrested, 12 of the 15 were after 9 pm or on weekends (Adnan had free nights/weekends plan).
5) The other 3 calls: one at 7:33 pm the day he got the phone. One at 1:44 pm on a day schools were closed. One at 8:53 pm. So, the “Nisha call” at 3:32 pm on a school day was clearly an outlier.
So, the call physically couldn’t have been Adnan based off every single statement by Jenn, Jay, and Nisha, and the day/time of the call was unlike any other call Adnan ever made to Nisha.
Ask yourself, what’s more likely? Jay, Jenn, and Nisha were all wrong in every single statement and testimony they ever gave, and Adnan is a highly intelligent psychopath who is also dumb enough to make a abnormal 2 minute weekday afternoon call to a girl he’s known less than two weeks, shortly after murdering his ex-girlfriend, all while relying on a track practice alibi. Or, a big-buttoned, old school walkie-talkie style cellphone that will execute a speed dial when a button is held for less than 1.5 seconds, made an unintentional call to a number programmed into speed dial that just rang and rang and rang and rang??
So I think the most interesting aspect of the first season of Serial is how they used the modern tactics of conspiracy theory to obfuscate this case. In a country where over half the population believes in 9/11 conspiracies, is it any wonder they don’t know their rear-quarters from a hole in the ground anymore? Donald Trump is by far the most lying republican candidate, yet still the most popular. The american public eats up BS like it’s candy. Go back to watching Game of Thrones you clowns, you are nothing but skin pods designed to soak up advertising. You have absolutely no critical thinking faculties whatsoever. Your entire country is Dunning-Kruger effect personified. If this Serial podcast had happened 20 years ago it would have had no traction whatsoever. But in a post-9/11 post-internet world, ignorance reigns supreme, and will forever more… welcome to the Decline of the Western Empire. the backlash to the Renaissance. The barbarian hoards are at the gates, and they’re all carrying iphones and ipads rather than torches and pitchforks…
Lets just call them muslims to clearly know our enemy!
You’re getting a lot of mileage with that Dunning-Kruger stuff, aren’t you?
Angry, misanthropic rantings. Like that guy on the bus everyone ignores.
This whole article reads as if someone is taking their own personal history into account and having that influence their view of guilt or innocence. To say that this is biased is an understatement.
I’m at a loss for what Sasha is getting out of those possessiveness entries. Those say almost nothing. They could mean he’s a monster. They could mean absolutely nothing. And frankly none of the excluded evidence she brings up seems particularly compelling to me. I think he likely did do it but I feel like Sasha is mostly engaging in confirmation bias.
Domestic violence is a strong term for a possessive teen boyfriend without police reports of stalking, threatening, or physical assault, or even a mention of it in Hae’s diary. Teens are annoying possessive, but that doesn’t make them abusers or murderers. Sounds a bit sensationalist to me.
Also, the AT&T witness that talked about the varacity of the geolocation of incoming calls on the cell phone recently backtracked after they found a disclaimer by AT&T saying that location cannot be guaranteed by *incoming* calls, just outgoing ones.
And yes, butt dials happen.
How about a conviction of first degree murder? Is that enough for you to categorize this as domestic violence?
I was talking about the portion of the article where they were talking about Adnan’s demeanor toward Hae BEFORE the murder, not the murder itself. Also, no a conviction does not mean he was a perpetrator of domestic violence *if he didn’t do it*.
Points to consider:
1. Jay gave an excellent interview that should be required reading of anyone interested in serial. It explains why he did not trust Koenig, why he changed his story early on and paints a very lucid straight forward account of what happened.
2. No one in a radio audience is remotely qualified to judge what was or was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt in A jury trial they are hearing about 15 years after the fact from a reporter who is obviously biased. The jury however was fully immersed in the case and for the duration of the entire trial their full time job was to arrive at a just conclusion.
3. Koenig did not have full access to the case. She also had an annoying habit of dismissing damning evidence, making unfounded accusations and getting side tracked by absurd tangents, like her extended discussions about whether Best Buy had a pay phone 15 years earlier. Whoops. It turns out that they did. So why did she waste time exploring that? Because her goal was not to arrive at an accurate understanding; her goal was to play the role of the heroic journalist freeing a supposedly innocent man. This is also why she waited until her bullshit alternative narrative was firmly established in the minds of her listeners before admitting that Adnan was a rotten kid who stole from his mosque regularly and had threatened to kill Hae in writing.
4. People who now believe Syed is innocent have allowed themselves to be conned by Koenig into believing a convicted murderer is innocent. Strangely enough it’s easier for you fools to believe Syed is innocent than it is to face the truth that you were duped by Koenig. The murderer went to jail. End of story.
Please don’t ever get on a jury.
“Strangely enough it’s easier for you fools to believe Syed is innocent than it is to face the truth that you were duped by Koenig. ”
That’s how Dunning-Krueger Effect works, the incompetent don’t have the faculties to know they are incompetent; the incompetent actually think they are more competent than those who are actually competent do, so the voices of the incompetent will always be louder and more numerous than the voices of the competent. In other words, competent people often second-guess themselves, but incompetent people never do.
Adnan, why would Jay, your (sorta) friend decide randomly to kill your ex girlfriend then frame you for the murder? You have not one theory as to why he would do this to you? So you’re saying Jay just picks friends randomly, kills their girlfriend, or knows of their girlfriends death then tells the cops his friend did it? If there’s not a reasonable answer as to why Jay would want to frame Adnan then let it go and leave Jay alone! If Adnan knows why Jay would have had a reason to frame him, that should have been the topic from day one. It’s what I was waiting for, and that show f$&@ed me. I got a big zero as to Jays motive.
To explain why Jay could have possibly lied, you should look into cases where an ‘informant’ tipped the police against someone innocent to claim the reward (crimewatch offered $3,075 in this case – collected on Nov. 1st) and in doing so, end up incriminating themselves by giving false testimony to build a false case. This is not conspiratorial at all. It’s facts. E.g. Shareef Cousin. Ryan Ferguson, Erickson.
Also, you cannot ask the defendant to prove why their innocent – for God’s sake. You look if there is enough evidence to convict them.
sara keonig (should be prounounced KO-NIG) is a hack and tries to sound so sophisticated and eloquent when speaking. Next season, please give me all the facts and don’t tailor the story
While that may be true, I’m pretty sure she knows how to pronounce her own last name.
Listen to the Undisclosed podcast. Listen to every episode. Consider all the facts that are presented, regardless of who is doing the presenting. Forget reasonable doubt if he’s guilty, I don’t see how a fair-minded person could consider all the facts and still have reasonable doubt that he is innocent. The podcast presents an overwhelming amount of factual, objective information that collectively leaves little doubt that a teenager was wrongfully given a life sentence.
little doubt is still doubt
I was at work on Tuesday and one of my managers mentioned the Serial podcast and played the first episode for me. It captivated my interest, so I spent yesterday and today listening. There is a lot of information to absorb, and I am still trying to process everything. My initial impression is that the case against Adnan Syed was weak. Of course, that does not mean he did not murder Hae Min Lee. It only means that the State’s case against him was not rigorous enough to establish his guilt beyond reasonable doubt. Whether or not Syed committed the crime, his conviction was a failure for the legal system.
Still, since listening to the podcast I have done some additional reading and digging, and of course none of it is conclusive. One thing I found curious, though. I did a search for Lee’s autopsy report and found a document, which appears legitimate but I’m not entirely sure, since I’m not an expert on such matters. However, the report does not specify a time of death – whether a specific time, such as 2:36 pm; or a window of time, such as between 2:30 pm and 4:30 pm; or a broader period of time, such as January 13 or 14. Do we know for a fact, medically speaking, that Lee was murdered during mid-afternoon on January 13? Or was that conclusion drawn on the basis of the time of her disappearance and the cell phone call log? It just seems to me that if her death cannot be tied with certainty to the afternoon of January 13, then who killed her, when, and why is opened up wide.
Does anyone have any knowledge of or observations about this subject?
Listen to the undisclosed podcast. They talk a lot about time of death, and call up a few experts to tell them how to get an idea of it, and whether the evidence from the body agrees with the state’s case (it probably most certainly does not)
While you’re obsessed with the whole domestic violence thing, the thing is that these are dumb teenagers controlled by their emotions and hormones, they aren’t normal adults. It isn’t that clear, kids just don’t do that and they’re so consumed with this person that they love and may even be stupidly planning their life with. Surely if this was a cut and dry domestic violence case there would’ve been previous violence or harassment while they were together and Hae, being a teenage girl, would’ve without a doubt mention it in her diary, the undisputed evidence. I see the “po evasiveness” everyday, being a teenager. My girlfriends groan daily about their boyfriends always wanting to hang out, it is not unique and doesn’t equal domestic violence. Even several outside parties declared that there wasn’t enough to prosecute Adnan, just the statement of one boy and suspicions from those around Adnan.
From what I remember from hearing the podcasts many months ago, Adnan and his supporters make it sound like he had already moved on from Hae Min after the break up and he didn’t care about her. Thus, he had no motive to kill her out of jealously. But, from Hae Min’s words in her diary, it’s clear that a jury could find that he was definitely not over her. I’m not sure if Hae Min took his virginity (the podcast mentioned how they were having sex) or was his first real girlfriend but if she was, it’s even more likely that he wasn’t just “over her”.
He did it.
You take a lot of liberties in assumptions here and are also quick to ignore holes in the case against Adnan. That ping? Already entirely discredited that it could actually pinpoint location whatsoever. The possessives is a good read, but you’ve got a major case of tunnel vision.
Take a listen of Undisclosed.
Oh yes, plead tunnel vision then suggest listening to undisclosed…..
I never said they didn’t have an agenda, but it’s highly ignorant to ignore the things they point out
diclosure is so heavily biased. im cringing at it as a law graduate trying to listen to them taking assumptions as facts. cant believe that practicing lawyers would say some of the things that end up coming out of their mouths. however u look at the case its obvious that adnan is not clean and there are lies in his story. im not even going to elaborate on the butt dial theory. as one of the girls said it on Serial: he must be the unluckiest person alive to have all these incriminating things happen to him.not buying the innocence. not one butt. sorry. meant bit.
I never said he’s innocent, but the prosecution was shady, his defense was shit, and the case against him was very far from solid
ya that’s right, these clowns don’t want to declare Syed innocent, they simply want to have him released from prison, so that the results are the same as if he were innocent…
Glad you have a reverence for the law and have a level head on your shoulders…
Thanks! I’m glad you’re so open-minded as to reverse your opinion on the subject after reading my comment!
Uhhh
Really fantastic article. So many people just “eat what they’re fed” when it comes to the whole Serial fiasco. It’s nice to see someone with an informed opinion writing about this case
Wow…this person is just as willing to ignore the facts that make her case shaky as the prosecution was! God forbid that anyone you know and love is ever put in this position of being railroaded by the “law.” With so much shoddy police/detective work, unethical jurisprudence on the part of the prosecutorial team, headed by this Urick character, if the courts do find in favor of Adnan Syed and agree that the State’s case was so flawed, Urick and his entire team should be sent to prison for a time equal to that which they subjected an innocent man to.
It was the jury’s decision. So blame them.
I enjoyed the podcast but I do feel they are more interested in trying to prove Synde innocent than the actual problem as to, who killed Hae. I think the emphasis should have been on that. And where’s the DNA from the car? Synde was a player, weed head, horny, sneaky and overly possessive teenage boy on one hand and a church going, charity, well mannered on another. That sounds like a really unstable, 2 faced teen to me, I don’t agree teens just acted that way at that age.
They mention his possessiveness and more in episode 2, actually listen before making this. It says he was possessive but never violent just petty like a teenage boy is
I don’t see why it should even be considered domestic violence; they weren’t married, they didn’t live together, they didn’t have a kid together. Why does it even matter anyway? Like someone else said, murder is murder. Would labeling it domestic violence bring Hae back? Would it do anything to lower domestic violence rates? The crime itself is awful enough, throwing every possible label on it doesn’t help the situation. And lastly, Serial owed nothing to Hae’s family. Sarah was approached by people from Adnan’s side, not Hae’s, that’s why they mainly focused on him. If you think that it is owed to Hae’s family to tell her story, then, there’s nothing stopping you from doing so.
This domestic violence inquiry is here to help solve the murder. Maybe it was solved. We’ll never really know.
Er, no. She clearly just wants it labeled as domestic violence. She isn’t trying to solve the murder. Maybe it could help solve it, though I really don’t see how, but that clearly isn’t the intent of the article.
Viewing the case as an instance of domestic violence would help understand why Adnan (if he really did do it) killed Hae Min. The legal definition (at least in California, where I live) of domestic violence doesn’t require marriage. It only requires a dating relationship or an previous dating relationship. I’m not sure what the laws are in your state but I would be surprised if marriage was required for an act of violence between ex’s to qualify as domestic violence
The assumption is that he did it because he was jealous and/or couldn’t get over the break up. I don’t see how “viewing the case as an instance of domestic violence” changes anything in any way. That would still be the assumption. As for the marriage thing, I guess you only read about half of the first line of my post. I listed more than just marriage. I actually don’t know the laws, really, but I would have assumed for it to be labeled as domestic violence there would have to be something, you know, “domestic” about the relationship. I don’t see how that’s at all surprising.
Motive is not an element that has to be proven for a charge of murder. If someone shoots another person in the face and kills them on purpose, the motive doesn’t matter. However, motive is useful to prosecutors to explain why someone wanted to kill. In the serial podcasts, Adnan apologists say that he had no motive to kill because he was already past his failed relationship with Hae-Min. However, if he was emotionally attached to the girl, jealousy would be a motive. From the few diary entries that were written about him, it sounds like he definitely wasn’t always the “cool” “non-jealous” type as he portrays himself to the Serial interviewers. If he wasn’t over the break-up, that would make him a liar as well because he said that he was already talking to other girls and didn’t care about the break-up.
As for the second point… they were previously in a relationship. They were having sex. That’s what makes violence between them a possible act of domestic violence. Think psycho ex-boyfriend. Does that make it any clearer? What do you mean when you put the word domestic in quotes? How much more of a domestic relationship does there have to be?
Of course, whether he killed her in a fit a jealous calculated rage or not is speculative but there is circumstantial evidence to support the theory.
Yes, I know what motive is and how it’s used in court. I think it’s pretty clear why he did it and, again, whether it was domest violence won’t change that. There’s really no other motive that I can see. However, if you have any ideas, I’d be happy to hear them (and that’s not sarcasm). But, in case you were implying that I’m an “Adnan apologist,” I’m not. In fact, I think he probably was guilty. As for the next point, I suppose I put it in quotes in absence of italics. As far as “How much more of a domestic relationship does there have to be,” well, there has to be at least something domestic, as in, relating to the home or family, so, like I originally listed, I would think they would have to be married, living together, have a kid together, something like that. I guess I’m wrong about that, though, but it kind of makes the word “domestic” pretty much pointless in the phrase “domestic violence” if any violence between two people who are or were romantically involved is now considered to be domestic violence. But that sort of goes to my original point… what does it matter? Especially if pretty much anything is labeled domestic violence, then OF COURSE it’d be domestic violence, and again, I don’t see how it reveals any new information.
Don’t obsess so much over the domestic violence aspect. Murder is murder. Lastly, and by the way, the podcast was rather more about Sarah Koenig and her idiocy than it was about anything else. Sarah is so damn dumb that she singularly fails to appreciate that good people sometimes murder and total a-holes can go their entire lives without physically harming anyone, let alone killing someone. This soul here otherwise violated cardinal rule no. 1, to wit, gave a false alibi. Not entirely limited to the guilty, but if I were a betting man…I’d be rich, at least if they had a betting line in Vegas for lying alibi means guilty.
where is your actual evidence??? Do people not understand how manipulated Jay was, the ENTIRE investigation was? Jay changes his story Every time he talks to police to make it closer to what they want him to say. He did it AGAIN in the Intercept interview… The state left out ANY evidence that would contradict their story. I want to know why people can say they Know Adnan did it. Maybe he was slightly possessive. But those statements don’t show any violence. Just that he was a kid, my girlfriend can be the same way, doesn’t mean she’ll kill me. He was with a new girl. And the BIG evidence Adnan was with Jay is the call to his new interest was on a DIFFERENT DAY! She explicitly remembers it happening when Jay was working at the Porn shop… which he didn’t start until weeks after the disappearance/murder… WHAT????? Jay lies ALL the time.
Again, where is ANY actual evidence Adnan did it?
Phone records, terrible study to actually get any accurate data and again left out the evidence against the state’s case. The expert witness also now admits if he was informed fully he would not have testified for the state.
So if Adnon is innocent, who do you think it might be? I was leaning towards Jay or Hae’s new boyfriend. It’s either one of those three, or it’s some rando, or it’s someone else close to her that did a great job at laying low.
There is definitely a lack of physical evidence but Jay’s words count as evidence in court. Jay has a lying problem…but there is one thing that doesn’t make sense if Jay is lying about about the murder. How did Jay know where the body was?
A whisper around town? Looking at Mr S version of events, it didnt seem likely he would just stumble upon the body, i think he was looking for it, maybe for reward?
‘a whisper around town’… yeah, and the keystone cops couldn’t track down the source of that whisper? Lay off the crack pipe…
yeah, okay, agreed. from what i have heard from the podcasts, it really sounds like this whole case was based on the single testimony of Jay. This case, to a kid like me in psychology, is iNSANE. because of a few things. 1. it has been proven by Loftus & Palmer that eyewitnesses usually get things mixed up after a few days. there have been rape cases where completely innocent men have been convicted of raping women because of similar facial features (this is just an example of a real case, please dont get on to me about rape cases and blaming the victim, im just using social science) 2. flashbulb memory can also be completely false, or exaggerated. while i dont know what motive Jay wouldve had to lie about this whole this, it is blatantly obvious that he was told to change his story. SO MANY THINGS ABOUT THIS CASE DONT ADD UP. i dont know whether Adnan is guilty or not, but this case has no PHYSICAL evidence to prove anything. the shovels and clothes were never found, the hairs and fibers never tested, and there are so many holes in each other the “witnesses” stories on either side there really just isnt enough evidence to put this kid away for life. ALSO THE EFFING LAWYER WAS BADGERING HER CLIENTS FOR MONEY AND WAS LATER DISBARRED. while it was consensual, she really did not do well with this case. literally the whole thing was based on Jay’s statement WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE TRUE BUT THERE IS NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE TO PROVE THIS STORY. this entire case is speculation. its really easy to bribe people to say something that matches up with your story… thats all im gonna say
All of the above makes moderately interesting reading. But you cannot get away from the fact that there is nowhere near enough evidence to prove, BEYOND REASONABLE DOUBT, that Adnam is guilty. That is just how it is. He should never have been convicted.
You are obviously not a reasonable person, so what would you know about ‘reasonable doubt’??? Oh I know you jokers have plenty of doubts, but none of them are reasonable. Now if you were to doubt you have an IQ over 40 that would be reasonable…
Whoa! Don’t blame feminism. And check out the Don-boyfriend-hitting-Debbie angle on domestic violence before pinning all that on Adnan. You have a good point to bring up violence against women. Bad reporting to just bring up one potential person in the case as being the only potential perpetrator.
In complete support of Sasha, Hae Min Lee died because of a senseless act of domestic violence at the hands of her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed. It’s a sad case of a teenager feeling the effects of love, jealousy and anger selecting a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Adnan Syed is not innocent. He committed murder.
Don’t fall for the “Don did it” podcast speculations.
It is all pure speculation and any of us online claiming so-and-so is a murederbis complet hubris and wrong. That does injustice to more than this case. I simply called out an author who looked at the domestic violence angle only looking at one potential suspect and then used that with a broad brush to blame feminism. That serves no one, not Hae Min Lee or any other victim, past, current, or future.
Mel,
Thank you for responding.
It is not speculation. It’s is analysis of the facts that points to Adnan Syed being the perpetrator of Hae Min Lee’s murder. 70% of all domestic violence cases that end in murder do so at the end of the relationship. This is just another one of the many sad cases. There are no other potential suspects. There are no other angles.
Keeping Hae Min Lee’s murder in jail, not allowing him to enjoy his life outside of prison, is justice for Hae Min Lee.
Read more…listen less.
Thank you for your thoughts. I disagree. I won’t deny people their enjoyment of using social media to speculate on criminal cases including this one but we don’t have access to all the information. Speculation such as this can lead to unjust persecution of innocent people, e.g. Reedit users on the Boston bombing case.
Not sure what your intent of the line “Read more … listen less.” If one forgets to listen, reads only what supports their current position, that can be damaging to open discussion and truth. Clearly you believe very strongly in Adnan Syed’s guilt; I’m not sure why you’re convinced given all the doubt presented in various forums. But he may be guilty, too. Doubt is what we have in the open, online forum. I just wish more people, not just followers of this case, would allow the criminal justice system to do more work to uncover the truth. Sometimes reporters can help with that (e.g. Errol Morris’s film The Thin Blue Line, David Grann’s writing about Cameron Todd Willingham’s case), by exposing flaws in past investigations and prosecutions. And sometimes they can hinder justice by obfuscating events, e.g. leaving out information, or misinterpreting unknowns, e.g. filling in with speculation where records are missing or unavailable.
Again, my intent was not to deny people their voyeuristic analysis of this case. I just hoped to not use the case to use broad strokes to condemn feminism or use domestic violence as a motive for only one suspect and not another. No one on this forum truly knows the murderer. Let’s leave that work to professional investigators. It’s what a just community, nation, country would do.
dude, you comment on all these blogs with the same kind of authoritative language like, ‘Adnan Syed is not innocent. He committed murder.’ and everytime I read it, it kinda shocks me that someone could be *so* confident about their opinion of someone’s guilt. Then I look at the name and viola it’s 21 Minutes – every time. LOL, dude what’s your deal? Are you gaining something from Adnan being guilty?
Saw you on the doc about the Boston Bomber…
You are correct. This is a simple case of a teenager unwilling to let go of his first love.
Here are s few facts that prove physically and circumstantially why the Baltimore Police Department zeroed in on Adnan Syed and never wavered.
1. Fact: Adnan Syed is the only one with motive, means and opportunity to kill his ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee.
2. Fact: Adnan Syed was a virgin when he begins his relationship with Hae Min Lee.
3. Fact: Adnan Syed is never the one that breaks up with Hae Min Lee.
4. Fact: Adnan Syed was described as possessive by Hae in her diary.
5. Fact: Adnan Syed was described as possessive and jealous by Hae’s friends.
6. Fact: Adnan Syed asked Hae’s friends if Hae was cheating on him.
7. Fact: Adnan Syed’s teacher testifies to Adnan stalking Hae Min Lee in her class.
8. Fact: Adnan Syed’s teacher testifies to Hae Min Lee hiding from Adnan.
9. Fact: Adnan Syed didn’t respect Hae’s decision to end their relationship.
10. Fact: Adnan Syed’s ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee begins a relationship with Don on or before New Year Day.
11. Fact: Adnan Syed was reassured by Hae Min Lee, in her break-up letter that his life wouldn’t end.
12. Fact: Adnan Syed wrote “I am going to kill…” on Hae’s break-up note.
13. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Stephanie that Hae dating Don came as a surprise to him.
14. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Stephanie he was worried about his “Manly hood”.
15. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friends said Adnan was not over Hae.
16. Fact: Adnan Syed is driving around Baltimore the night before Hae goes missing.
17. Fact: Adnan Syed ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee is on a date with Don the night before she goes missing.
18. Fact: Adnan Syed calls Hae 3 times around midnight at home the night before she goes missing.
19. Fact: Adnan Syed asks Hae Min Lee for a ride that he didn’t need.
20. Fact: Adnan Syed is over heard asking Hae Min Lee for a ride.
21. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Officer Adcock he asked Hae for a ride.
22. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Officer Adcock Hae Min Lee left school without him.
23. Fact: Adnan Syed while needing a ride doesn’t ask anyone else for one.
24. Fact: Adnan Syed while needing a ride doesn’t get a ride from anyone else.
25. Fact: Adnan Syed later lies to the police about asking Hae Min Lee for a ride.
26. Fact: Adnan Syed doesn’t remember seeing anyone on January 13th, 1999.
27. Fact: Adnan Syed receivers two letters from Asia McClain after his arrest.
28. Fact: Adnan Syed’s letters from Asia McClain never mention a day or time.
29. Fact: Adnan Syed’s letters from Asia McClain mention the first snow which was one week earlier.
30. Fact: Adnan Syed’s letters from Asia McClain are written after Asia meets with Adnan’s family.
31. Fact: Adnan Syed’s letters from Asia McClain question Adnan’s innocence.
32. Fast: Adnan Syed’s letters from Asia McClain are written before a timeline is ever discussed.
33. Fact: Adnan Syed being in the library is un-corroborated by anyone else.
34. Fact: Adnan Syed being in the library to check e-mail is un-corroborated by his e-mail activity.
35. Fact: Adnan Syed being in the library is uncorroborated by the library video cameras.
36. Fast: Adnan Syed lied about giving Asia McClain letters to Ms. Gutierrez immediate upon receiving them.
37. Fast: Adnan Syed’s defense team look into Asia’s alibi and felt it wasn’t strategic to use her because it went against his own story line.
38. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Rabia Chaudry he doesn’t remember seeing Asia McClain in the library.
39. Fact: Adnan Syed’s supporter Rabia Chaudry testifies that Adnan Syed didn’t tell her he saw Asia McClain in the library on January 13th, 1999.
40. Fact: Adnan Syed has no alibi for January 13th, 1999.
41. Fact: Adnan Syed’s supporter Rabia Chaudry, 14 years later, makes Asia sign an affidavit specifying the exact time she supposedly saw Adnan in the library, the time now matches the time line presented at trial.
42. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Jawan tells police that Adnan and Hae would go to the Best Buy parking lot to have sex.
43. Fact: Adnan Syed and Jay Wilds were together on January 13th 1999.
44. Fact: Adnan Syed confessed to Jay Wilds he killed Hae Min Lee in the parking lot of Best Buy.
45. Fact: Adnan Syed’s ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee was killed at close range.
46. Fact: Adnan Syed’s ex-girlfriend Hae Min Lee’s cause of death is manual strangulation.
47. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Jay Wilds that Hae Min Lee broke the windshield wiper lever during the struggle.
48. Fact: Adnan Syed had the body of Hae Min Lee in the trunk of Hae’s car.
49. Fact: Adnan Syed and Nisha meet at a New Year’s Eve party.
50. Fact: Adnan Syed and Nisha never dated and were never intimate.
51. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Nisha that college girls were giving him their number.
52. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Saad says you have to scan the phone book and press in order to call Nisha on Adnan’s cell phone.
53. Fact: Adnan Syed calls Nisha using his phone, while with Jay Wilds.
54. Fact: Adnan Syed calls Nisha on a school day and puts Jay on the phone.
55. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Nisha says it was the 1st or 2nd day Adnan got his cell phone.
56. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Nisha says she only spoke to Jay once.
57. Fact: Adnan Syed tells Nisha that he and Hae don’t talk anymore.
58. Fact: Adnan Syed is described as “hurt” over the break-up by Nisha.
59. Fact: Adnan Syed is not seen at track practice on the 13th of January, 1999.
60. Fact: Adnan Syed’s track coach isn’t certain Adnan was late to track on the 13th of January, 1999.
61. Fact: Adnan Syed’s track coach isn’t certain Adnan was at track on the 13th of January, 1999.
62. Fact: Adnan Syed’s track coach wouldn’t let Adnan Syed practice while he was fasting.
63. Fact: Adnan Syed’s track coach remembers a conversation about Ramadan, but can’t say it took place on the 13th on January, 1999.
64. Fact: Adnan Syed being at track on the 13th of January 1999 is corroborated only by Jay Wilds.
65. Fact: Adnan Syed and Jay Wilds go to Kristi’s apartment on January 13th, 1999.
66. Fact: Adnan Syed was noticeable agitated while at Kristi’s apartment.
67. Fact: Adnan Syed buries Hae Min Lee’s body in Leakin Park per testimony given by Jay Wilds.
68. Fact: Adnan Syed dumps Hae Min Lee’s car behind row houses on Edgewood St per testimony given by Jay Wilds.
69. Fact: Adnan Syed palm print was found on a map book in Hae’s car.
70. Fact: Adnan Syed’s palm print was found on a map book with Leakin Park torn out.
71. Fact: Adnan Syed’s palm print was on the map book normally kept in driver’s door pocket.
72. Fact: Adnan Syed’s palm print was on the map book found on the rear seat.
73. Fact: Adnan Syed’s finger prints were found in the trunk and glove box of Hae’s car.
74. Fact: Adnan Syed, after searching her car, took Hae’s wallet and keys per testimony given by Jay Wilds.
75. Fact: Adnan Syed told a teacher to stop helping the police by asking questions about him.
76. Fact: Adnan Syed ripped pages out of Debbie’s note book containing questions from the police.
77. Fact: Adnan Syed tells the school nurse that Hae called HIM the night before she disappears.
78. Fact: Adnan Syed tells the school nurse that Hae wanted to “get back together”.
79. Fact: Adnan Syed is described as catatonic when he hears that Hae’s body has been found.
80. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Yassar Ali is implicated by an anonymous caller.
81. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Yassar Ali implicates Adnan Syed
82. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Yassar Ali implicates Adnan’s brother as well.
83. Fact: Adnan Syed was accused of confessing to members of his Muslim community.
84. Fact: Adnan Syed’s spiritual advisor pleads the 5th to the Grand Jury.
85. Fact: Adnan Syed’s friend Jay Wilds does not testify at the Grand Jury.
86. Fact: Adnan Syed is indicted by the Grand Jury.
87. Fact: Adnan Syed is indicted by the Grand Jury without hearing testimony from Jay Wilds.
88. Fact: Adnan Syed’s father lied on the stand for Adnan.
89. Fact: Adnan Syed’s cell records prove he was not at the mosque from 7:30-10:30 PM on the 13th of January.
90. Fact: Adnan Syed was seen by Jenn Pusateri when Adnan says he’s at the Mosque.
91. Fact: Adnan Syed never paged Hae or called the family after she went missing.
92. Fact: Adnan Syed calls Jay Wilds “Pathetic” in court.
93. Fact: Adnan Syed passes a lie detector test proving he asked for a plea deal.
94. Fact: Adnan Syed felt the case against him was strong.
95. Fact: Adnan Syed’s mother would be “OK” if Adnan Syed pleads guilty.
96. Fact: Adnan Syed’s supporter Rabia Chaudry has said there’s nothing that exonerates Adnan Syed of the murder of Hae Min Lee.
97. Fact: Adnan Syed has yet to request DNA testing of evidence still available and sealed.
And there is still more. This is only half of the facts and doesn’t cover Adnan driving back to check on the body and the car when he believes Jay has been arrested.
Adnan Syed killing Hae Min Lee has the most facts, the fewest assumptions and the easiest to speculate beyond any reasonable doubt. This is why the jury took less than 2 hours (including their lunch break) to render its verdict of guilty.
Not evidence. Most of everything you say there is hearsay and speculation and therefore not evidence. our justice system is a innocent until proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt and there is beyond a reasonable doubt in this case. I’m not saying that Adnan is innocent. But there is not sufficient evidence to convict. You don’t have to prove yourself innocent all you have to do is prove that there’s a possibility that you’re innocent a reasonable possibility. And…there is a reasonable possibility. especially after it’s been found out that Don falsified his time sheet to create an alibi.
Chris,
Everything I posted is fact.
I have not made up a single thing. They are not my conjectures or speculation. It did happen. It is evidence. It was and can be presented in any court of law. It is backed up by physical evidence, expert testimonials and witness statements. You have nothing like this list..actually it’s longer..on anyone else associated with this case, not even Don.
You keep quoting entertaining podcasts. I continue to post facts.
Hae Min Lee died in a senseless act of domestic violence at the hands of her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed. It’s a sad case of a teenager feeling the effects of love, jealousy and anger selecting a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Adnan Syed is not innocent. He committed murder.
No I keep use facts from case file. Sorry the ONLY evidence is jays testimony he has enough questions to create reasonable doubt. I’m sorry that you don’t accept our legal system and its standard for being not guilty. You are by far in the minority and it’s only because the minority are willfully ignorant. That’s a quote yes but on anything to do with the case. Just you guys think someone sihokld be found guilty regardless of evidence.
“you guys” who are us guys? I’m a single person who has spent way too much time reading reams of case testimony, police notes and trial transcripts instead of listening to silly podcasts, in order to come to the inevitable conclusion that Adnan Syed killed his ex-girlfriend.
If Jay’s testimony was the only evidence, then I wouldn’t be able to compile an ever growing list of facts against Adnan Syed. If you know the case files, then please correct my list by giving me the number of anything I listed that did not in fact occur.
I accept our legal system. Adnan Syed was indicted by a grand jury, tried twice and failed numerous appeals. This IS our legal system working as it should. Podcasts are not part of our legal systems, no matter how much you’d like them to be.
The truth is, Adnan Syed killed Hae Min Lee in a senseless act of domestic violence as Sasha suggests in her column.
Your list is textbook Gish Gallop. Your main problem is calling things said by Jay Wilds ‘fact’ even when it’s not supported by anything. Yes, it’s a ‘fact’ that he SAID those things (amongst many other contradictory things), but it’s not a fact that these things actually happened. You believe they happened, and that’s it. You have no special authority in this case–you just have opinions, like everyone else.
I’ll give a couple examples because who has time to make a list that long? #1: you could not possibly know that. This is your opinion unless you personally knew everyone involved in this case at the time of the murder. #26 is ridiculous. You’re trying to tell me Adnan doesn’t remember seeing Stephanie? Adnan? Jay? His family? His teachers?
#64 and #67 are a hilarious example of your bias. So, when something helps Adnan (being at track) you cast doubt by saying it’s only corroborated by Jay. But when it implicates him (burying a body) you state it as fact even though it’s …corroborated only by Jay. You can’t have it both ways. This also applies to #68, 74, 90.
The Nisha stuff also shows your bias. Hmm…I wonder why you failed to mention that Nisha was certain that she spoke to Jay at the video store where he worked?
Marissa,
Thanks for your response.
I’m calling the fact that Jay said the things he said, because it is. It is in his trial testimony. Jay was called a liar on the stand. Jay admitted to lying to the police…on the stand. In the end, the jury took this into consideration when they convicted Adnan Syed of murder. Many things he said are not contradictory. On the stand, Jay testifies to Adnan Syed claiming he killed Hae Min Lee in the Best Buy Parking lot. 16 years later, he still claims that Adnan Syed told him he killed Hae Min Lee in the Best Buy Parking lot.
I do believe these things happened. If I was a juror on this case, I would have voted for conviction. I have no special authority in this case, you are correct; I’m just a fan that has read way too much about it. Everything I provided is documented in the police notes, trial transcripts or witness testimony.
#1: Adnan Syed does have motive, as I’ve listed. Adnan Syed does have opportunity, as I have listed. Adnan Syed does have means, as I have listed. I based my opinion on the facts about the case.
I don’t personally know anyone involved. I just read through reams of online documentation.
#26: Adnan Syed has always maintained that it was a “normal day”. For him he was at school, track and the mosque. Unfortunately, he doesn’t remember seeing Asia in the library, or anyone at track or even being with Jay the whole day. This is a fact gathered from his interviews and PCR hearing transcripts.
#64: Coach Sye told police he had no way of recalling whether or not Adnan was actually at track on any specific day. He also testifies that he can’t remember the 13th of January, 1999. No one remembers Adnan Syed being at track on that day…other than Jay who testifies to dropping him off late in order for Adnan Syed “to be seen”.
#67: Jay testifies to helping Adnan Syed bury Hae Min Lee in Leakin Park. It’s a fact of the trial transcripts. What more do you want to know?
I am not doing anything but repeating what I’ve read about this case. If the facts cast doubt about Adnan Syed being a killer, then so be it. But, if it corroborates it, then it should be noted. The notes, witness accounts, transcripts, physical and circumstantial evidence point you in the direction. This is why the same long list can’t be made for any other suspect in this case.
#68: Jay testifies that Adnan drove Hae’s car. It’s in the transcripts.
#74: Jay testifies that Adnan went through Hae’s car and took her wallet and keys. It’s in the transcripts. Adnan Syed’ finger prints were found in the trunk and glove box of Hae’s car. This is physical evidence provided by the trace evidence specialist. These are all facts of the case.
#90. Jenn testifies to seeing Adnan Syed as he drops off Jay. In Adnan’s interview, he states he went home, pick up food for his father and went to the Mosque.
The Nisha call is documented in the police notes. She testifies that the call took place during the day, after school, on the day of, or the day after Adnan gets his new phone. She only spoke to Jay once. Adnan put Jay on the phone.
I’m not making this stuff up. It’s in the notes, transcripts, photos and video from the case.
I’m supporting Sasha. Hae Min Lee died because of a senseless act of domestic violence at the hands of her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed. It’s a sad case of a teenager feeling the effects of love, jealousy, and anger, and selecting a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Adnan Syed is not innocent. He committed murder.
Yes, it is certainly a fascinating case and it’s easy to get sucked into the details. So, you agree that #1 is opinion and not fact. Good. You’ve now completely changed the meaning of #26, so ok. As for the rest…I’m perfectly well aware of what the police notes and trial transcripts say as I’ve read them myself, so I’m not sure why you keep reassuring me you haven’t made this up. I never said you did: I said you’re being misleading by using them as actual facts of the case, rather than unsubstantiated claims made by witnesses.
Funny you mention Jay’s recent interview: right after he says Adnan killed Hae at Best Buy, he says he learned later that that’s probably not what happened. So no, he’s not sticking to that story. And we all know the fiasco that is the trunk-pop story(ies).
And speaking of trial transcripts…Jay repeatedly insists he was at Jen’s house at the time of the Nisha call. And Jay says Jen picked him up from his house the night of the 13th and so she wouldn’t have seen Adnan. Surely you know all this. So yes, you are cherry picking so badly I’m not even sure what the point is.
This is not a competition called “whoever makes the longest list wins”. All I see is a couple circumstantial things and a bunch of filler that everyone who follows the case already knows.
That being said, I certainly take no issue with you supporting the author or whatever opinion you have about the case, even if I don’t agree with it.
Thanks again for your response.
Motive is based on facts about his relationship with Hae.
Means is based on facts about the way Hae was murdered.
Opportunity is based on facts about the lack of alibis.
So, it is my opinion that is based on facts I’ve read….yes.
“Unsubstantiated claims made by witnesses” … When the same evidence is provided by multiple witnesses, it becomes substantiated. If 3,4 or 5 people all say a person was possessive, then it’s a good chance he is. If 3,4 or 5 people say he was upset about the break-up, then it’s a good chance he was.
Jay never says he knows how Hae Min Lee was killed. You are correct. He does recall Adnan Syed telling him he killed Hae Min Lee in the Best Buy parking lot.
“I don’t know how she was murdered, I don’t know exactly how she got put in that trunk, and I told the cops that.” – Jay Wilds, Intercept Interview
“I go to pick him up, and when I get there he says, ‘Oh shit, I did it.’ I say, ‘Did what?’ He says, ‘I killed Hae.’” – Jay Wilds re: Adnan Syed, Intercept Interview
“When I pick him up at Best Buy, he’s telling me her car is somewhere there, and that he did this in the parking lot.” – Jay Wilds, re: Adnan Syed, Intercept Interview
Keep in mind that the Intercept interview is not evidence. I never used it as fact. I do use recent statements, such as Laura’s interview with Bob, to back up my impression of Jay as being a guy that would help you out no-matter what…but I don’t use it as fact. It’s only part of an entertainment podcast.
I agree that the trunk-pop stories are a fiasco. Jay is a fiasco. Jenn is a fiasco. They both should have done serious prison time for their involvement in the murder of Hae Min Lee. But, neither of them committed this crime. If Jay had one story and stuck to it, over and over again, I believe the debate would have never started.
I’m basing the Nisha call on Nisha. She is the one that was called. She’s the one that remembers when and how the call transpired. It occurred on a school day, the day of or day after Adnan has his new phone…and Nisha says it’s the only time she has spoken to Jay. It’s a better bet that she’s recalling the event better than Jay and places Adnan in possession of the phone on the 13th of January.
It’s not competition. It’s a just a long list of facts one has to dismiss in order to prove to themselves that Adnan Syed didn’t murder Hae Min Lee in a senseless act of domestic violence. It is how I came to this conclusion.
#1 – Motive? So Adnan being described as a “player” and already seeing other girls…like NISHA…That’s not proof he had moved on from Hae? Your definition of motive is not borne out by Adnan’s actions. If you believe the Nisha call (as it seems you do) that’s his new girlfriend.
#26 Adnan not remembering the details of the day is not a “fact” per se. It’s just a gap in the details of the day. If you forget to take out the trash, does that prove you’ll never take out the trash or that you were trying to piss off your partner, or just that you forgot? There’s no “fact” implied by simply forgetting.
#64 see #26…forgetting something doesn’t prove anything
#67 Jay swore to police and on the stand that he didn’t help bury Hae…he did help…he talked to Jen on the phone while Adnan buried her…He didn’t know where the body was but he did know where her car was. I really hope you’re not pinning your opinion on any of Jay’s 11 different versions of “the facts” because honestly, I can’t imagine a world in which all of what he said were “facts” under your definition.
#74 Adnan was in Hae’s car. That’s all the prints show. Not WHEN he was in it. Also, Jay testified her coat was next to the grave, then he realized it was actually recovered in the car so his story changed about seeing the coat. I mean, come on….seriously? The fact is that he said these things…that doesn’t make it a fact in evidence. For instance, it’s a fact that I’m typing that unicorns are real. I’m saying it outloud…unicorns are real. The fact is I said it…but unicorrns aren’t real. I mean…come on!
#90 Really? We’re still talking about the shifting stories of Jay and Jenn? Why isn’t it included in your list of “facts” that Jenn hated Hae? Maybe SHE did it? See? If I suggest that, it’s a fact right?
And seriously — the Nisha call. She remembers talking to Jay when he worked at the porn video store…but Jay didn’t work at the porn store on January 13th. Now THAT is a fact.
I realize you’re pulling these statements from the transcripts and I’m sad to hear you wouldn’t have been able to see through the inconsistencies as a juror. The problem here is that the jury just didn’t have enough FACTS about #1 Jay being the anonymous tipster to earn money to buy the motorcycle he wanted. Prosecutors hid that FACT and the jury was none the wiser. #2 you should listen to the interviews with Jay…listen to the cops tap the desk or the paper every time Jay goes off script #3 (and this is the best FACT of all) Hae had a total of $8 in her bank account on the day of her death. She had just picked up her check at Lens Crafters. The ATM that was between Woodlawn High School and the school where she picked up her little cousin is right across the street from the home of a serial killer who had just killed another local girl in the same area. I’m sorry…you probably mean well.
I think you’ll be a happy person the day the Supreme Court makes podcasts a part of the judicial process. Until then, you have to understand that anything you’ve heard is simply for entertainment.
#1 Adnan Syed is not a player. Several witnesses are recorded as saying he was hurt, angry and surprised by Hae’s breakup. Nisha and Adnan never dated. They were never romantic. Adnan tells Nisha he was hurt by Hae. Adnan Syed has motive. 70% of all domestic violence cases that end in murder occur at the end of a relationship.
#26 Adnan not remembering the details of the day is a “fact”. You can call it a “gap in details”…but its still fact.
#64 see #26…individually, each fact doesn’t prove anything…holistically it is easy to see he is the perpetrator of the crime.
#67 Jays testimonies are a fact of this case. I understand you don’t like it or believe it, but the testimony was presented in a court of law. Until a court of law rules against his testimony, it is still usable against Adnan Syed. This is fact.
#74 Adnan Syed’s prints were on a map book, normally kept in the driver side door pocket, but found on the rear seat floor, with a map page torn out which included the burial site of Hae Min Lee. These four facts is circumstantial evidence presented at trial. It was presented to show that Adnan Syed was in the driver seat, reached for the map book, tore out the map page and tossed the map book onto the rear seat floor.
#90 Its included because it’s a fact of this case. It’s in the police notes and trial testimony. It stays as a fact of this case until a court of law deems it no longer to be a fact a jury should consider.
Please create a list of all the facts – physical, circumstantial or imaginary – that can prove Jenn murdered Hae Min Lee. I tried and I couldn’t.
Nisha said the call was the day of or the day after Adnan gets his phone. Nisha remembers it was a week day, after school. Nisha remembers Adnan saying something about a Video Store. Cathy also mentions Jay and Adnan stopping by a video store on the 13th of January. Nisha remembers speaking to Jay only once. Jay remembers that day to be the 13th.
There are no inconsistencies. There are only facts as found in the police notes, trial transcripts and witness testimony. None of my facts are conjectures.
Everything you’re quoting is conjectures, speculation and accusations made by someone trying to do anything to get her convicted friend freed. There are no facts about Jay being the “anonymous tipster.” Prosecutors did not hide any facts from the defense. The tapping doesn’t imply anything other than tapping, if it was tapping. There are no facts about Hae’s paycheck. There are no facts that Hae use the ATM you reference. There are no facts, physical or circumstantial that links the murder of Hae Min Lee to anyone else but Adnan Syed.
Yes, but you know people. The jury is what it’s all about regardless of anything. People jump to conclusions and judgment. That is why the DA and Prosecutors hand pick jurors in their favor. If you pay attention, in reality it’s more like “guilty until proven innocent.”
The jury selection process is documented in the trial transcripts. The jury was selected by not only the prosecutor and defense attorney, but also by the judge. They strive to get an impartial group of people willing to hear the facts of the case and decide guilt or innocence based on only what is presented at trial.
Your conspiracy theory is baseless.
I just very randomly scrolled through the post and found:
“Fact: Adnan Syed buries Hae Min Lee’s body in Leakin Park per testimony given by Jay Wilds.”
You mean the known and admitted liar? And the fact that the lividity analysis in no way supports this “fact”?
You selected an easy one:
Fact: Jay testified that Adnan Syed told him he had killed Hae Min Lee in the Best Buy Parking lot.
Fact: Cristina Gutierrez called Jay a liar while on the stand.
Fact: Jay admitted to to lying to the police on the stand.
Fact: The Jury took this into consideration when they convicted Adnan Syed.
Lividity is supported by the burial photos of Hae Min Lee and the ME reports.
Hae Min Lee was buried with her head and trunk facing down with the left arm bent at the elbow and the forearm and hand folded back across the waist, consistent with fixed frontal lividity.
Read more…Listen less…
None of these facts is proof though. And convictions require proof.
It is proof. It’s proof that he had motive, means and opportunity. It’s proof that there was physical and circumstantial evidence to indict, try and convict him of the murder he committed.
And to date, after 16 years, no-one has been able to provide any evidence that exonerates him for murdering his ex-girlfriend. Oh wait…they do have a plan…and here it is:
If we can call this a conspiracy…we will.
If we can call everyone liars…we will.
If we can call everyone else a suspect…we will.
If we can victimize the victim all over again…we will.
If we can call the Baltimore Police Department corrupt…we will.
If we can call the District Attorney evil…we will.
If we can hide evidence….we will.
If we can delay DNA testing…we will.
Anything is up for grabs…because they only one aim…get a convicted murderer freed…what do they have to lose?
I like how “21 Minutes” thinks any statement (by Wilde or anybody) is an actual fact whether or not it is proven to be accurate. Wilde Lied, officers Ritz and McGillivary lied. Kevin Urick lied. And that’s okay by 21 Minutes. All four (Wilde, et. al.) changed their story to fit any piece of evidence at their hands at that moment for the sole purpose of putting Adnan in prison. Furthermore, they purposely gathered only partial evidence (taking note of only some phone numbers, logging only some interviews) and did so in a completely slipshod manner to hide their machinations, but in 21 Minutes’ mind, Adnan is clearly guilty. This wasn’t even the first time these detectives acted this way.
Between Serial, Undisclosed, and Serial Dynasty (Now called the Truth and Justice Podcast) More than enough evidence has been gathered to show that there is no case against Adnan and that the detectives were so busy trying to convict an innocent boy that they never bothered to gather evidence to go after the real killer.
Thank you Warren for your response;
You’re another one who will be a happy person the day the Supreme Court makes podcasts a part of the judicial process. Until then, you have to understand that anything you’ve heard is simply for entertainment. Everything you’re quoting is conjectures, speculation and accusations made by someone trying to do anything to get her convicted friend freed.
I provided a rather long list of facts…and it’s actually getting longer as more documents come forward. It is proof. It’s proof that he had motive, means and opportunity. Its proof that there was physical and circumstantial evidence to indict, try and convict Adnan Syed of the murder he committed. And to date, 16 years later, no-one has been able to provide any evidence that exonerates him for murdering his ex-girlfriend. Here’s what their plan is:
If we can call this a conspiracy…we will.
If we can call everyone liars…we will.
If we can call everyone else a suspect…we will.
If we can victimize the victim all over again…we will.
If we can call the Baltimore Police Department corrupt…we will.
If we can call the District Attorney evil…we will.
If we can hide evidence….we will.
If we can delay DNA testing…we will.
Anything is up for grabs…because they only one aim…get a convicted murderer freed…what do they have to lose? Unfortunately, there is nothing that will exonerate Adnan Syed…as Rabia has already stated.
Adnan Syed was an innocent boy, until he murdered his ex-girlfriend in a senseless act of domestic violence as Sasha suggests in her blog posting.
Wow I thought I had said my peace but I couldn’t make it past this comment.
“Everything you’re quoting is conjectures, speculation and accusations made by someone trying to do anything to get her convicted friend freed.”
This sentence, like the rest of your, line of thinking is so flawed and self defeating that nothing more needs to be added. Seriously are you are you making a joke or what!? The first part of your statement you somehow agree with exactly what the DA built there case on, and then you seem to go and go into your own accusations, speculations, and conjecture about the producer of this piece. Even if they “became” friends, considering the FACT that she never knew this guy before she started to investigate, do anything, and is that much of a friend??? I am sorry. What part of her admitting in the end, she can’t say one way or the other if he did it or not, only that the law says “beyond a reasonable doubt,” (which has not been satisfied), are you able to make such a statement!???? Wow, I mean just…..wow!
The State of Maryland presented facts, received an indictment from a grand jury, tried the case in a court of law, and won. My opinions are based solely case files, trial transcripts and witness testimony. I listened to “Undisclosed” but stopped after Episode 5, comically referred to as “The Grass is Greener” episode. This is where they link Adnan Syed’s innocence to the color of the grass under Hae Min Lee’s car.
At that point, I rolled my eyes, laid my forehead on the steering wheel of my car and, while sitting in traffic, unsubscribed from the podcast and deleted all episodes. I get that podcasts are meant to be entertaining, but none of their conjectures, speculation and accusations has been presented in a court of law under direct cross examinationof expert witnesses. Until such time come, it’s all nonsense.
You believe a lot of what you hear>personal experience, right?
There was, from what we all know from podcasts and media, because none of us were At the trial, NO Proof. The prosecution is held responsible for the burden of proof, not the defense. There was no physical evidence to Prove that Adnan killed her. All the prosecutor seemed to “try” to prove was that Jay’s and Jen’s stories were accurate. But how did they Prove they were accurate if they were Never The Same? And if the only parts of their stories that stayed the same didn’t match the prosecutor’s timeline?
The moral of the story is, Do a better job at investigating a crime if you truly believe the accused is guilty. Otherwise it may come back to bite you in the ass.
I don’t think you know what the word “fact” means.
I don’t think you’re the real ted danson…
Well duh, it’s right there in my name ‘NOT ted danson.”
Well then, I do know my facts… 🙂
And it’s about as relevant to the topic as all your other “facts”.
I’m glad that we agree that they are relevant facts.
Oh, so you don’t get irony, either.
Fact: Just about every argument you made for “solid” evidence by the prosecution can be made for the defense as well.
Example: Adnan Syed being in the library is uncorroborated by the library video cameras. (NOT being in the library is uncorroborated by the library cameras. Because there is no video. Just cause there isn’t doesn’t mean there is.)
Fact: Adnan Syed’s defense team look into Asia’s alibi and felt it wasn’t strategic to use her because it went against his own story line. Actually it was because they decided to get their nails done that day. No wait it was because there was a big sale a Kmart. The only evidence in regards to the “alibi and defense team” is a few notes saying to check into it. There is no evidence stating if that happened or what was decided if it did happen.
This next one either you are leaving out your explanation, or it just needs to be file in the WTF category.
Fact: Adnan Syed doesn’t remember seeing anyone on January 13th, 1999. (Maybe you meant he doesn’t remember in detail what he did with people that day??) Cause he sure as hell never said he doesn’t remember seeing anyone. Actually he remembered seeing lots of people. Quick with out referencing your phone or computer, write a detailed account of every person you saw and what and where you went with them on July 23rd this year. Its just like the announcer stated, if that was not a particularly unusual day for you. Hell I am thinking and I can’t even remember the weather that day much less who I saw or what I did.
Fact: Adnan Syed passes a lie detector test proving he asked for a plea deal. I have no clue about this one. Owwww a lie detector test proving he didn’t lie about something he openly and freely admits to doing. Should we also submit to him passing the question: “Are you currently wearing prison issue clothing? Yes!” That’s it we have cracked the case right there! That obviously proves he did it! Oh wait sorry that only proves he was considering his options. Wear the clothes, be thrown in solitary for not cooperating, or take your chances going naked….. Wanting to know your options, a chance at life in prison with no hope of parole vs. a guaranteed deal that you will breath fresh air before your balls fall off. You are telling me you would not want to at least know your options even if you know you are innocent. Cause it damn sure doesn’t matter what you know it only matters what a group of people will decide.
Fact: The only thing I can draw from your list is that you don’t seem to have a whole lot going on in that skull of yours. But then again all I know of you is one poorly argued opinion. The fact is, maybe your right, maybe your wrong. Which means there is doubt. And that’s all there needs to be.
Fact: Adnan Syed’s defense team had 80 alibi witnesses on their list. Adnan’s recollection of the day is that he stayed at school. He doesn’t remember going to the library. Adnan’s storyline is school, track, Mosque. Asia’s alibi went against Adnan’s own time line.
Fact: Adnan Syed doesn’t remember seeing anyone on January 13th, 1999. It’s more than just his cell phone records. At 17, Adnan Syed would have had homework assignments, papers due, class schedules, social events, school gossip, notes being passed around…emails… there’s so much in a teenager’s life to build from, even before asking friends and family if they remember what occurred that day. Adnan was also, supposedly, a very popular kid. I understand he wasn’t part of the general population of 1,500 students, but he had friends, kids he played football with, ran track with, people he had class with. He had people from his community, people from the Mosque. He has his family and other relatives. They could have ALL helped him recreate and recount for his day.
The fact of Adnan Syed passing a lie detector test comes from Rabia. It was performed too prove he asked for a plea deal…and nothing more.
My opinion is based on these and other facts. I gathered them from reading through reams of on-line documents. You want to build your case against someone else, please do so and posted it here for everyone to see. My list is now close to 200 individual items that point only to Adnan Syed.
There’s no doubt in my mind that Adnan Syed is the killer of Hae Min Lee. He could get released on a technicality, but he will never be exonerated.
If everything you say here is true, I definitely agree with you. The thing is, no one really knows. I say this because I haven’t personally read any case files. I’ve listened to “Serial” and I’ve tried to research as much as I can online to form my own opinion, but truth be told, it is very hard to do. I think the real discussion everyone is trying to focus on is a fair trial-which might not have been the case here, and a fair trial is very important to a just system. I’d rather like to convict the right person, and for all I know, he was already convicted and has served 16 years. “Serial” made me really lean towards Adnon being innocent, mainly because I believed Jay was a liar. Is that true? I will never know. I just hope if Adnon is guilty, that they give him a fair trial and convict him. That way it will be a just decision.
Everything I posted came from an on-line document I read, be it a police note, trial transcript or witness testimony. I have not made anything up.
I know some believe he is innocent, was unjustly convicted and should be released. Others believe he is guilty, but unfairly tried and, once again, should be released. Yet others feel they should retry him and let the chips fall where they may.
Obviously, I wasn’t in the courtroom, but I feel he got a fair trial, two of them actually. I know the right person was convicted of this crime. Adnan Syed did kill his ex-girlfriend in an act of senseless domestic violence.
You are correct. No one other than Jay Wilds and Adnan Syed knows exactly what occurred on January 13th, 1999. I certainly don’t. My list of facts, which grows as more documents are released, is how I came to my conclusion that Adnan Syed is true killer of Hae Min Lee. There is no other option for me.
If Adnan Syed is released from prison because of a technicality, then so be it. I can’t stop it. I’m just a fan of SERIAL. But, in my mind he will always be a murderer and will ever be exonerated from killing Hae Min Lee.
The key to my posts is the words “I”, “My” and “Me”. I don’t speak for anyone else.
Or maybe he did get a fair trial and you are one of the many mouth-breathers who are easily manipulated by media? nawww, couldn’t be… yer so sofistercated!
the possessiveness was definitely mentioned however Aisha and Hae’s other friends specifically said that they never found it unusual and i dont think domestic violence is relevant in this case…
I’m all about possible other suspects…….and then I remember that Jay knew where the car was. I would like to think that the police found it first and mentioned it to Jay, but it’s just hard to grasp. Could they really be that stupid to feed him THAT much info!?!?
Not hard to grasp after the state admitted to a brady violation and that they essentially doctored evidence when the mislead their expert witness, the defense and the court with the subscriber actively report and it’s cover page.
Chris… I hope you know that AT&T Wireless Services Engineer A.Waranowitz recently said he “has NOT abandoned his testimony, as some have claimed.”
Please get your facts straight. There is no Brady Violation. The defense had all the documentation at the time of both trials.
How do you define the word fact’?
Tell you what, you point out one of my points that isn’t a fact and I’ll remove it from my ever growing list of facts in favor of Adnan Syed killing his ex-girlfriend when she dumped him in order to date a new guy.
You’ve already admitted #1 is opinion.
🙂
Opinion based on facts… yes. You are correct.
Seriously? Well if you don’t even know what a fact is, then you should probably remove that word from the beginning of each item. You’re completely undermining your credibility with that kind of sloppiness.
Also, #28 is wrong. Asia’s letter dated March 1st says she talked to him on “January 13th” in the first couple sentences.
And I like how you stretch Adnan’s palm print on a map to FOUR whole items. Seems a bit redundant, to say the least.
Seriously? Yep.
sloppiness… OK.
redundant… OK?
Thanks again for responding.
I’m interested in your perspective. I thought Sarah did mention his possessiveness in the podcast but I’d have to go through and listen again. I think the bottom line was that there wasn’t sufficient evidence and that’s the problem with the case. As a survivor of domestic violence, I know what it’s like to cover up for an abuser. People had no idea of my circumstances until I was finally able to recognize what was going on. So it is certainly possible that she was good at hiding the problems in the relationship. Abusers can be very charming, which Sarah mentioned Adnan to be and he could just be manipulating the situation. However, I still don’t believe that there was enough to say that he did commit the murder, although I definitely hear where you are coming from.
This article is astonishing. Where is the feminist outrage, you ask? I assume it is focused on actual cases of domestic abuse and domestic violence. Despite your taking on the challenge to present facts to support the domestic violence angle, Ms. Stone, you proceed to present none of them. Is this because they’re non-existent? Here is your direct quote on the topic that comes closest to addressing the issue:
“Serial left out almost every single piece of evidence that pointed to Syed as someone who was possessive, controlling and unable to let go of Hae Min Lee.”
Great. Point us to this evidence, please. Hae Min Lee’s diary reflected the exact opposite of “possessive, controlling, and unable to let go.” None of her own friends testified or have ever otherwise stated that Adnan Syed behaved in such a manner. A single friend of hers did tell the police that he annoyed Hae Min Lee with too many phone calls when they dated. That is it, and that complaint alone is overwhelmed by contrary evidence that they had a perfectly normal, healthy, happy relationship that ended the same way many teenage romances do.
What, again, do you make of the fact that Hae was regularly mentioning Adnan in positive ways in her diary after the break-up? What do you make of the fact that when her car broke down, she called both her new boyfriend and Adnan at the same to come help her? And the fact that they both showed up? And the fact that the new boyfriend chatted with Adnan in a friendly way, and the two boys agreed that Adnan would drive Hae in his car while the boyfriend would stay to deal with the car? What do you make of the fact that Hae complained in her diary that Adnan didn’t call her enough? Where in your article do you address these facts?
You don’t. Because you’ve been sloppy with the facts and don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.
You are talking about murder! A teenage boy that had a break up with his gf, who actually had great conversation and help with her new bf discussing her car. How dare you assume that us listeners are just persuaded by the new podcasts. They clearly ask listeners to dig deep, look for resources, reply to us, etc. There are many many people invested in this case and because of Sarah’s, Undisclosed, Bobs and the Innocence Project, other cases are being looked at. Do you know many Death Row inmates are found to be completely innocent of any crime… 1 out of 10…
Ooooo. What a terrible article. I’m sorry that you haven’t invested more time in researching this case. Might I suggest the truth and justice podcast (formerly serial dynasty)? I’d say that new information on don is quite damning….
I am abhorred that you would accuse someone of being abusive without any actual proof of the abuse. Taking the testimony of a deceased person does not even stand in court– what was her definition of possessive? Maybe she was drifting away and he got desperate and clingy– like teenagers are wont to do! Hello! You using the Abuse word is a travesty to any REAL victim out there– survivors and victims alike who have been hit, manipulated, and taken advantage of, had their self confidence worn down to a stub, and did not have their word believed by prosecutors or judges because of idiots like you who scream ABUSE with any situation. Not even her own parents are accusing Adnan of abuse and they are the most likely to be critical of their relationship. What you are doing is the equivalent of accusing someone of rape, just to get your way. You are decreasing the reliability of every single woman who only has her word against the men you truly abuse her.
Disgusting.
How about you gather ACTUAL EVIDENCE and not surmises and redit references, to come to your conclusion before you make such a blanket and seemingly factual response.
There was zero evidence of Adnan being possessive or abusive. You ask why it domestic violence wasn’t brought up even though it’s what the prosecution repeatedly pushed as their motive, which shows you did/have not paid attention. Many of their friends have repeatedly stated that Adnan was not possessive or enraged with the break-up. His was grief-struck, but still her friend. The only report of his “potential” behavior was supplied in a bigoted report that very inaccurately described the behavior Muslim Pakistanis that was drafted at the request of prosecuting side. You are accusing a person of domestic abuse when there is absolutely no evidence of it, per all the people who knew both Adnan and Hae. This is a pretty hard smack in the face of women and men who have suffered at the hands of a partner. But, even worst, it is absolutely disrespectful to Hae Min Lee for you to label her an abuse victim solely based on your belief that it must’ve have happened. Feminists stand up for women and women’s rights, we don’t rewrite the history of women who have passed just to pat ourselves on the back. The outright fact that everyone who knew them stands by their statements that theirs was not a mean, possessive, or domineering relationship proves the opposite of your malformed position. You claim abuse absolutely occurred because it was used as a motive by the prosecution, but since the reality is there was no abuse, you have inadvertently disproven the point you attempted to make. Since you clearly haven’t put effort into evaluating the reality of their relationship as portrayed by just about everyone they knew, stop saying you’re making a feminist point. It makes feminists look as stupid as stereotypes portray. Just say you’re making uninformed guesses.
Thank you. I read this drivel and when I came across “domestic violence” I immediately thought……….evidence??
I’ve been looking around for statements from Hae Min’s diary, because I’ve read claims elsewhere that there were statements about Adnan’s violent abuse towards her. Your article references a statement about his possessiveness but am I right when you cite a subreddit post from “Debbie” as the source?
Serial did address Adnan’s attachment, possessiveness or whatever, so thats not new. And it’s not the same thing as violence, though I don’t think that claim is being made here.
I do basically agree that Serial lacked a deep component of Hae Min’s story. But, as Koenig said at several points during the podcast, she never got any sort of participation from Hae Min’s family. There’s a disappointing problem here: Koenig approached the family, who heard it was a “podcast,” and if they even knew what a podcast was at the time, they figured it was nothing of any real importance, and chose not to relive what must be a truly painful subject for them.
Nobody involved with this case or with Serial killer ever predicted the staggering reaction from the nation that came to this story. I could tell, with Jay, as soon as it all unfolded, he was kicking himself for not getting his story out sooner. So was the prosecutor and detectives who dryly sniffed that this was an open and shut case of no significance. All those guys ran to whatever media they could find to defend themselves… After Serial had completed.
I still think Sarah Koenig did a marvelous feat of reporting. The story could have been more about the destruction of a young girl…except no one close to her, or from the authorities would carry her torch. I really can’t blame the family, perhaps, but we have to accept the constraints of the story based on who was willing to tell it. Serial didn’t leave that out.
The one thing that always kept doubt in my mind was “how did Jay know where the car was or anything else about the murder.” At this point it seems clear that Jay didn’t know anything other than what the police told him. Adnan may have been involved, but I’m doubtful. What I’m certain of is that Hae Min Lee was not killed and buried as the state says it went down.
As for this article, you do a disservice to real victims of domestic violence by comparing it to a 17 year old being clingy about his very popular and attractive girlfriend. By that definition, every highschool boy with a girlfriend is a domestic abuser.
I 100% agree with you on this. Shortly into listening to serial I began to feel like Koenig was pretty biased and absolutely needed adnan to be innocent, for whatever reason. It really bothered me she never once considered adnan was abusive or this was an issue of domestic violence, even though I saw some very clear signs of it when she was going through Hae’s diary. Not that it makes adnan a murderer, but any person with the critical eye of a journalist should have at least looked into it more- talked to a domestic violence expert- see if there was anything possibly there. Considering the Aisha call a butt dial at length while not even looking into the possessiveness and controlling behavior and the fact he was calling her regularly late at night until she disappears? To me this was proof that serial was at best intellectually dishonest & was not looking at both sides equally. It was only interested in proving doubt on the states case. Then there a couple calls she plays where she’s taking to adnan & you can tell she’s got some sort of weird infatuation with the guy. She’s asking him bs questions & it’s so awkward & even he’s like “you don’t know me” and it clusters her, like she’s in high school & crushing on the school’s bad boy. I think she was totally charmed by him & it just ruined a really good opportunity to investigate this case. But I guess if adnan were guilty & the state was right all along, that’s not as compelling of a story. But if they can exonerate him, then she’s the conquering hero & it’s so much more awesome. While I think the states case could have been better & I think jay might have been more involved than he’s let on, I think adnan did it. There was nothing in serial that made me doubt his guilt with any real significance & I’m not listening to the propagandist mess that is undisclosed- serial was biased enough. Sheesh. The fact jay knew where the car was means someone jay knew killed Hae. The only one with any reason to kill Hae associated with jay is adnan. That’s it. He showed signs of an abusive controlling partner. He has amnesia of that day(bs). He doesn’t have a good alibi. He stopped calling a girl he was calling nonstop as soon as the day before the minute she disappears. His good friend tells her friends in California that she’s dead days before her body turns up. Several people hear him ask her for a ride that day & he needs it because he gives jay his car for some bs reason & his cell phone so his location at the time of the murder can’t be traced by gps tracking. Even serials own expert said he’s either the unluckiest person in the world or he did it. I personally don’t believe in luck. I’ve been choked for just “mouthing off” by someone who behaved very similarly to adnan. (The definition of mouthing off saying no in a tone he didn’t like). Now I’m ok but what offended him also wasn’t as serious as leaving him for someone else or insulting him to make him piss off. it’s not so unbelievable to think he asked for a ride in an attempt to win her back or get her to think things over or simply just to fight with her, she lost her cool out of frustration & said something mean & things got out of control & Hae wound up dead. It’s more common and less extreme than you think. Does it mean that that’s absolutely what happened? No. But the fact there were signs that he was not the normal happy go lucky bf he claimed to be deserved be picked apart in at least the same way that Aisha call was. His controlling and possessive behavior is not insignificant. It signals certain things about men who view women poorly & with anger & aggression & it needed to be explored
You mention domestic violence in your post as the reasoning and behavior for hae’s murder however where is your evidence for domestic violence? Had avoiding adnan and cimplaining about his “possessiveness” does not equate to domestic violence. Look it up in the dictionary and edictse yourself without minimizing domestic violence survivors everywhere.
And one last thing: Hae was comfortable enough to break up with Adnan, there was never any indication through Hae or her friends that she was scared of Adnan, and even still wanted Adnan around even when she was with Don (and Hae got with Don and constantly wanted to be around Don, but I guess that would just be clingy and not abusive behavior).
Suspicious behavior and probably an indication of a problem was Stephanie, a beautiful, popular high school girl caught up with a local drug dealer who has history of jealous behavior, and later took a job in a porn store, when everyone else including Stephanie had promising future’s ahead of them. Jay claimed he helped get rid of Hae’s body to protect Stephanie. And the fact that Stephanie became disconnected from all of her friends after Hae’s murder and refuses to speak about it to anyone. That relationship doesn’t seem more strange and unhealthy than Hae and Adnan’s?
Sarah Koenig actually did include his possessive behavior in Serial. She also stated that she was conflicted about Adnan because he had such a charming personality, but there was still a lot of evidence against Adnan that didn’t necessarily incriminate Adnan but just didn’t make any since at all. Two people I find interesting are Jay and Jen. Jay did have a violent past, and he exhibited strange violent behavior back then amongst a lot of his friends. in fact even after that incident, Jay has had various assault charges, including a domestic violence charge, a peace order against him, and assault on multiple law officers. If you look on case search Jay has two pages of criminal charges through the years after Hae’s murder, which all of these charges were not prosecuted or dismissed for no apparent reason. Adnan has not have any trouble or issues since. Jen has also had various drug charges and other criminal activity that involved Jay’s older brother Anthony Wilds. I don’t think there is bias, but I do think that there are stronger possible suspects, and when there are drugs involved it doesnt always need to be a clear motive and both Jay and Jen were both involved in drugs and I’m sure more than marijuana. And maybe Jay just lied about EVERYTHING and this is why he hasn’t had one consistent story throughout this whole saga, even his story in his recent intercept interview has changed. When you start lying, you have to keep lying to make up for the last lies you told and forgot. The only thing I know for sure is that Jay is a liar and his lying statement is what put Adnan behind bars for life. Maybe Adnan is guilty, but Jay’s testimony was too inconsistent and not enough to put him in jail.
When Serial ended, I was pretty much with Sara in concluding that Adnan didn’t get a fair trial, but that didn’t mean he was innocent. Since then I’ve been quietly keeping up with both sides, read all the intercept interviews and also listened to Undisclosed – fully recognizing that it is a very biased source.
Biased as Undisclosed is though, the medical examination and autopsy of Hae’s body was not. Learning about that is what has put me solidly on the ‘Adnan Is Innocent’ team. The fixed lividity on the front of her body meant that Hae was lying face down somewhere for at least eight hours after she died/before she was buried. That rules out the possibility of her being ‘pretzled up’ in a trunk between death and burial. Jay could not possibly have seen her in the trunk as he claims… unless we think that Adnan laid her out flat somewhere, put her back in the trunk to show to Jay, then laid her out flat again, then back in the trunk again to go to the burial site…. that is, frankly, stupid.
So Hae wasn’t in a trunk, and she could not possibly have been buried lying on her side at seven p.m., just four hours after death around three p.m (according to the prosecution’s timeline), because then the blood would have pooled on both her front and her side instead of just her front. That means that EVEN IF (and it’s a big if) the cell tower ping for Linkin park is accurate, hell even if Adnan were actually in the park at seven, it would mean nothing… because she was not buried at that time.
Unbiased medical fact shows that no part of Jay’s testimony could be true. The cell tower information was unscientifically obtained and misrepresented in many ways at trial – this may not have been intentional, since it was the first case in the state to use such evidence and both defense and prosecution did not actually understand it. With those two sources of evidence so completely discredited, and no history of violence between Adnan and Hae (or Adnan and anybody), how can anyone still think he’s guilty?
Exactly, exactly. Anyone currently keeping up with the case on Undisclosed or Serial Dynasty/Truth and Justice (the same podcast, just changed its name to Truth and Justice after a request from Sarah Koenig) knows this article gets it all wrong. Even dismissing Undisclosed as biased, there’s just too much hard evidence that Adnan did NOT do it at this point. It could still be domestic violence though as Don’s alibi has recently discovered to be completely fabricated.
In complete support of Sasha, Hae Min Lee died because of a senseless act of domestic violence at the hands of her ex-boyfriend Adnan Syed. It’s a sad case of a teenager feeling the effects of love, jealousy and anger selecting a permanent solution to a temporary problem. Adnan Syed is not innocent. He committed murder.
Don’t fall for the silly “Don did it” podcast speculations.
It’s easy to prove Adnan Syed is the only one with motive, method and opportunity.
BTW: Read more and listen less…you’ll learn something.
Hae Min Lee was buried head and trunk facing down with the left arm bent at the elbow and the forearm and hand folded back across the waist, which is consistent with fixed frontal lividity. It was presented at trial in the autopsy report.
A. Waranowitz has recently said he “has NOT abandoned his testimony, as some have claimed.” Nothing was has changed other than podcasts severing up a big plate of conjecture to go with the inability to exonerate Adnan Syed of killing Hae Min Lee.
The entire case is hung on two things. Jays testimony and cell phone evidence. First off, Jay is at best a lying, unreliable witness with a criminal past by his own admissions. The cell phone evidence itself is so ridiculously unreliable it shouldn’t have ever been permitted to be in the trial. The way it collected was unscientific, another mark against it. That said, it is possible Adnan killed Hae, it is also possible and likely that he didn’t, but we will never know, because there was never a thorough investigation aimed at findings he truth (not just proving he did it). The state should have to prove their case more than they did.
go listen to the undisclosed podcast.
Just finished episode 6. I am not yet swayed into believing that Syed isn’t guilty. I’m thinking too that Jay had more to do with the actual murder. If Syed did kill that beautiful young woman, it’s a very old and common story. And tragic. And heartbreaking. But let’s not fool ourselves that women are only victims. That’s why this article irritates me. Women kill their men, women kill their children. Women make lousy politicians. Women are corrupted by power, too. And they think too much with their hearts. I’m a woman. I like being a woman. But I don’t fool myself: my gender doesn’t make me a better person than a man, for all men’s faults.
Oh, and all you females out there: don’t let anyone bully you, physically or emotionally. You start to see some ‘physicality’ coming out in your man/woman? Put an end to it IMMEDIATELY. I did, and it was easy. I just told my man: You are going to hit me? Really? I promise you: if you hit me, if you hurt me… I will make sure that you are hurt FAR WORSE. Never – NEVER – had that problem again with him.
I kept reading your article waiting for the compelling evidence that Adnan was abusive to Hae it never came. You are slamming Sarah Koenig/MSM for believing select testimony in this case and then present select testimony as the smoking gun that Adnan was an abuser. I get your point and couldn’t agree more that the common thread of domestic violence in most murders of women in this country goes largely ignored by the media, but you present what is essentially your interpretation of the case as if it were substantiated fact. It’s not. Could you be biased by the fact that Adnan was a member of a traditionally patriarchal religion/culture? Also, if Aisha was so unreliable why did Detective McGillvary bother to lie under oath that she recanted her testimony when she hadn’t? Why not say she would only testify if he was innocent, which made her an unreliable witness?
MICHELLEG – well said.
You’re hung up on the type of crime. It’s clouding your judgement. This isn’t about the type of murder it may have been, this is about whether or not he should have been convicted of it, and whether or not he did it.
There is NO record of aggression, NO record of abuse, NO record of threats, NO record of physical or mental torture. None. This “huge amount of evidence” you’ve brought forward are three examples of when he wanted to spend more time with his girlfriend, when they were still dating. After they broke up? NO record of him not being okay with it. Literally, you can’t dispute any of what I just said. You’re a very bad feminist in the same of you’re using it to accuse a boy of murder with NO concrete evidence.
The biggest point you’re absolutely refusing to tackle is this: every single piece of evidence is from Jay’s mouth. It’s one word against the other.
Story #1: A timeline that didn’t fit where Adnan really was, a story about sitting on a cliffside, a phone booth at Best Buy, Adnan called him.
Story #2: Cliffside has gone, that no longer happened. Timeline has changed now after hours of unrecorded time with police and being shown the phone pings. Places changed, to fit the pings more.
Story #3: To friends, before police got involved, Best Buy didn’t happen. The murder was in the library parking lot. He didn’t go to Adnan, Adnan came to him at the pool bar.
Story #4: The Nisha phone call. Nisha only spoke to Jay when they were at Jay’s job at the video store. Jay relays that this was on that day, but he didn’t have the job at that point and he says they didn’t go to the video store that day.
Story #5: “I’m going to kill her” was said the day of, then the day before, then “for four or five days” while in his words (even in the recent Interceptor interview) he had only hung out with Adnan “once or twice before”.
Why are you okay with all of this? These aren’t just slight changes. These are drastic. “We sat on the cliff just looking out after the murder, for 40 minutes, we talked about life and he talked about where to dump the body, and talked about dumping it in the park”, then ‘poof!’ that didn’t happen anymore. Why? It didn’t fit Adnan’s schedule.
You seen to indicate strongly Adnan’s guilt. Yet you ignore happily the inconsistencies, the lies, the changes of the only evidence. Why? One can only believe you have an agenda. It’s clear that agenda is “domestic violence is wrong”.
Shame on you.
“To find Syed not guilty you have to accept the least probable situation all the way down the line.”
Thanks for putting into words how I feel about this after listening to both serial and undisclosed. Undisclosed in particular takes very weak points of ‘evidence’ and makes statements like ‘based on this I’m going to say that you cannot say x didn’t happen’ when it’s completely feasible to conclude the exact opposite. I cannot believe that these people are lawyers sometimes. They want adnan to be innocent, so they are ignoring possibilities that suggest he isn’t.
I don’t think your very few facts about Adnan’s possessiveness proves anything. Many high schoolers go a little crazy over a girl in the way Hae’s diary speaks of Adnan. And wanting to avoid seeing Adnan on a day doesn’t put it over the top on convincing me it’s a domestic violence case. None of Hae’s friends said he was violent or got angry in a way that shocked them. That’s not to say there wasn’t domestic violence going on between them behind the scenes, but I don’t see evidence pointing one way or the other.
That being said, I think a couple of things get mixed up when discussing this case. It’s pretty obvious he should have been convicted *based* on what happened at his trial. Had his lawyer laid out evidence in the way Serial showed, maybe he would have gotten off, maybe he still would have been convicted. Serial basically presented what would have been the ideal case for the defense. It alone created reasonable doubt. So based on that, people think he should have been found innocent whether or not he actually did it.
The problem is we haven’t heard the ideal case for the prosecution in response to Serial’s evidence. And if we did hear it, it’d probably focus on the fact that it’s absolutely absurd to think all of these bits tying Adnan to the murder were coincidence. And Jay knew where Hae’s car was. That would rule out any theory put forth by the defense that that random serial killer or any other random party not tied to Adnan that day was responsible here. The defense would have had to put the blame on Jay and would have had to have put forth a scenario under which Adnan was not part of the murder. At this point we’re getting too hypothetical to predict what would have happened, but during Serial it was mentioned that the jury was very sympathetic toward Jay. Jay had no motive. Jay’s story changed a bunch of times, but the substance of it each time was similar enough in a way that other police officers have said was common in even truthful statements.
Closing arguments for the prosecution would have been yeah Jay may have been more involved than he’s letting on, but jury do you really think there’s any way Adnan was not involved in the murder? He, not Jay, had a relationship with Hae. His phone, not Jay’s, was pinged near the park after Adnan said he had gotten his phone back. Adnan, not Jay, tried to get into a car with Hae after school (by asking her for a ride) and then told the police that, and then later retracted it.
I think he still would have been convicted but it’s debatable. I think people who actually think he didn’t do it though are living in fantasy land.
Sasha, I agree with you, 1000%. You are totally, completely right. Thank you so much for taking the time to write and share this. More people should hear what you are saying here. I listened to Serial and am closely following all the media coverage as well as the Undisclosed podcast. And I always feel exactly as you do.
Yes, it’s important to look at how police departments can coax and coach testimony, how prosecutors can unfairly twist things and even lie (does anyone not know this?), how so many trials really are botched, and how terrible wrongful conviction cases are – and yes, the media is jumping all over this case to bring attention to these issues. But I agree that they’re missing what truly could be – and is most likely to be – at the heart of *this* case. As you wrote, domestic violence homicides happen all the time – and the media is missing a tremendous opportunity to actually talk about *this.* And I share your heartbreak. This very sad and important topic should not stay as widely ignored in our society as it always seems to be.
Fuck him – he did it.
Actually, in Becky’s statement to police, on April 9, 1999, she said that she heard at lunch time that Syed had asked Hae for a ride, and Hae said it would be no problem. Becky then saw Hae talking to Syed after their last class at the end of the day (approx 2:20pm) and heard Hae tell Syed that she could no longer give him a ride, because she had something else to do. She did not say what that something else was. Becky also said were others there, Aisha and possibly Krista. She tells detectives the she heard Syed say, “OK, I’ll just ask someone else” and said goodbye. Becky did not see Hae after that. So as far as getting all my info from Serial, that’s just not the case. I have been reading transcripts as well. There are just many inconsistencies to this entire story. If he did it – then he is where he deserves to be, BUT if he did not – I hope he is exonerated. This would not be the first time that an innocent person has gone to jail.
Dana, yes that’s true about Debbie. But Krista heard Adnan talking about needing a ride in first period. It seems like he kept pressing the issue – for whatever reason Hae said no but put that together with the two different stories Adnan told two teachers when Hae’s body was found, like they had a big fight about the prom, like Hae was trying to get back together with him and you have potentially a scenario where Adnan wanted to talk with Hae and she wanted to avoid him. Maybe she said yes but then changed her mind knowing that there was no point to another conversation. So far we have no idea what went on the night before, close to midnight when he called her three times. All we know is that the very next call Adnan makes from his cell phone is to Jay the next day. Debbie’s accounting of Hae having something else to do conflicts with Adnan’s own testimony that “she got tired of waiting and left.”
The thing about circumstantial evidence is that while any one piece of it could be argued or seen as inconclusive, having a LOT of such evidence can’t help but add up and weigh on a jury’s mind. Perhaps the most telling part of Serial was saved for the final episode when Dana (I think? One of the non-Sarah producers) made the common-sense logical observation that if Syed was innocent, then he must be “the single most unlucky guy in the world” to have all of this stuff go against him.
That was what ultimately swung my opinion towards Syed being IN SOME WAY involved with the crime. Now, this isn’t saying he was the killer himself necessarily, and this isn’t saying that (from a legal perspective) he should’ve been found guilty given how little-to-no hard evidence the prosecution actually had. What I find impossible to believe, however, is that Syed was as completely innocent as he claims — it’s safe to assume that he and Jay were in some way involved in Hae’s death, even if the specifics may forever remain unknown.
“Someone, somewhere is going to tell the real story to people so that they can see just how much evidence there is against Adnan Syed. For instance, there was physical evidence — his fingerprints were found on items in the car for instance – it’s just that they have to be discounted because he was always in her car.”
Well wait a second, that’s not really ‘evidence,’ then. It was well known that Syed had often been a passenger in her car, so I don’t see how finding his fingerprints on various objects was a clue towards his guilt.
After listening to Serial, I was still “up in the air” in regards to Syed’s guilt or innocence. There were times I thought, “yes, he is guilty as hell” and then times, I thought, “they’ve got the wrong guy.” The issue I have, is that the burden of proof lies with the prosecutor. The jurors are instructed, as in every case, that the defendant is only guilty if proven beyond a reasonable doubt. In my opinion, domestic violence aside, there was a lot of doubt. There was NO physical evidence found proving Syed committed the crime. Was he just THAT lucky?? The key witness for the prosecution was Jay – and his story is wildly inconsistent. He told two versions of his story that had some very telling differences, including where Jay first saw the body of Hae in the trunk (something you’d think a guy would remember). Plus, is it really possible that Syed would be dumb enough to kill his ex-girlfriend in the parking lot of a Best Buy? Did you hear his taped interviews? Why did he change his story on numerous occasions? Why didn’t the Baltimore police push Jay harder on the inconsistencies in his story? At trail, Jay admits that the police informed him that if he did not implicate Sayed in Hae’s murder, then he would be getting charged with the murder”. Good enough reason to me, to implicate someone else, no? As for Syed’s defense attorney – I feel she was quite incompetent as far as not exploiting Jay’s inconsistencies. As the prosecutions main witness, she should have torn him to shreds with his different stories. This would have been enough to cause jury doubt. So yes, I agree that his appeal should be heard based on the fact Syed was inadequately defended. So, yes, maybe he still did it BUT maybe he didn’t.
Dana, I can see where you’re coming from but you are really getting your information from Serial. Someone, somewhere is going to tell the real story to people so that they can see just how much evidence there is against Adnan Syed. For instance, there was physical evidence — his fingerprints were found on items in the car for instance – it’s just that they have to be discounted because he was always in her car. Adnan Syed asked for a ride with Hae while his own car was still in the parking lot during first period. He then lied to the police about it even though there are witnesses. The case against him is very strong. It’s a mistake to think otherwise. Serial needed to tell a good story and they did. But it wasn’t the truth.
Amazing post. Thanks for sharing. God Bless.
I think you’re missing the point here. The issue isn’t so much whether he’s guilty, as whether there was enough evidence to convict him. The media and the consumers of media are always so quick to take sides and shout definitely “this did happen” or “this didn’t happen.” But remember 12 Angry Men? Innocent until PROVEN guilty? Adnan may very well be guilty – Serial say as much at the end. But I think they also make it pretty clear that the state did not adequately PROVE it. And THAT’s what would make it a wrongful conviction.
Personally, I would rather a possible murderer go free than an innocent man go to prison. And believe it or not, that’s how our constitution works too.
I think you’re missing the point here. The issue isn’t so much whether he’s guilty, as whether there was enough evidence to convict him.
I can assure you that I know that’s supposed to be the point. It’s a different conversation to me, though, than what the media is avoiding in its coverage of the case. After reading the state’s case for both trials, Adnan Syed’s own words when questioned about the case (not included in Serial) I think there was more than enough evidence to convict and barring a dream team like OJ had I would have voted to convict based on the evidence.
The only problem I have with the state’s conviction of Syed is that he was only 17 — he should have been shielded from the media being a minor and he should not have gotten such a harsh sentence being that he was under 18. The myth is that he was convicted based on little evidence. The defense could have ordered the DNA test. They didn’t.
Meanwhile, the Innocence Project is supposed to come up with something though we have not heard from them. All we heard was that they could not exonerate Adnan Syed from the crime. They have yet to find the breakthrough evidence to free him. Should that come up – should anything come up on the innocence side I hope that comes to light and he is exonerated. Right now, though, that is not this case.
Our legal system worked in this case. Adnan Syed was indicted by a grand jury, tried twice and failed numerous appeals. This IS our legal system working as it should. Podcasts are not part of our legal systems, no matter how much you’d like them to be.
Read more…Listen less. You’ll learn something.
Adnan Syed killing Hae Min Lee was a senseless act of domestic violence as Sasha suggests in her column.
I think they did prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.
In my recollection, the podcast was not nearly as biased as you make them out to be. I am regular AD reader and a Serial listener, but I have not read extensively about the case or followed the media’s post-Serial scrutiny of the case. And yet, the things that you mention– Adnan’s possessiveness, the unreliability of memory 15 years after the fact, basically everything but that teacher lying on behalf of Hae– were not new to me. They were either implied or explicitly stated in the podcast.
The whole conclusion of the series was that there was evidence that pointed to his guilt and potential alibis that went untested. Koenig reasoned that she personally could not say Adnan was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt, as there was too much left unexplained. If listeners came away from the podcast professing his innocence, that’s on them. In matters so unclear, some people will believe what they want to believe.
I got the distinct impression from listening that Koenig firmly believed in his innocence in the beginning and had some serious doubts with the scales tipped at least slightly towards guilty by the end.
“As a fan of Serial I am so amazed and appreciative that Sarah Koenig kicked ass as she did. As a mother, a woman and a feminist I’m heartbroken that they could leave out something so important as Adnan’s behavior leading up to the murder.”
If Koenig left out what you feel is a critical piece of the story, then clearly she didn’t “kick ass,” but rather did a sloppy job of reporting. I’m torn about Serial — I found it to be a riveting listen at the time, and I devoured the entire series in a single 24-hour period before the final episode. That said, in the months since, it’s pretty clear that the Serial crew simply might’ve bitten off more than they were able to chew in analyzing this case since they opened the door to a LOT of speculation and, as Sasha noted, might’ve started the ball rolling on getting a murderer freed. Creating the episodes in real time may have been a big mistake, in my view; it allowed for the show’s own popularity to essentially play a role and bias the proceedings, such as how people who weren’t willing to talk in earlier episodes were now willing to go on the record, or how others sprung out of the woodwork to discuss their small angle on the case (i.e. Jay’s old co-worker).
Serial was also notable in that for all of the show’s interviews and research, the lack of on-record interviews with so many key figures (Hae’s family, Jay, the detectives, the prosecutor, Jay’s girlfriend, Jay’s female friend who was his alibi, etc.) leaves a lot of glaring holes in the narrative. Maybe Koenig was hoping that some would come on board as the show progressed, yet with so many of the anti-Syed voices not going on the record, it allowed for many more of the pro-Syed or at least the “Syed wasn’t guilty beyond a reasonable doubt” voices to be heard, which tipped the narrative in favour of his innocence. I would imagine the majority of Serial’s listeners, if polled, believe Syed is innocent of the crime, though obviously there is also a very large segment who quite passionately believe the opposite.
I’m not sure why the media is being blamed for framing Syed’s case as a “wrongful incarceration,” when Serial was doing this from day one. It seems pretty evident that Koenig was really hoping to have this be her Thin Blue Line and she’d found a case of a wrongfully accused killer, yet I get the feeling that she (and her show) had to back away from this early stance as they explored more details of the case. Even still, despite the fact that Koenig’s ultimate opinion was that “the evidence was so lacking that Syed shouldn’t have been convicted,” she is completely unsure if that means he’s actually innocent or not.
Was the case against Syed very sketchy and in all probability mishandled in some way by the Baltimore PD? It seems likely, yet the evidence is so stacked against Syed that, despite a lot of open questions about the specifics, it seems like an Occam’s Razor situation — the most logical scenario is that Syed indeed killed her, enlisted Jay in the burial and coverup, and he was justly punished even if his trial was a gong show.
I’m curious as to how another season of this show will work, since now that Serial has been established as a thing, that will undoubtedly influence the stories their interviewees are telling. It seems like S2 won’t be about a crime, which I feel will cause a drop in popularity due to the lack of zing, even if the actual podcast itself is a better quality now that Koenig and her team are more seasoned with the format.