Pressing things right to the line is Lee Daniels’ controversial film, Precious. The New York Times’ Felicia Lee has written a fair-minded (in my lily-white opinion) account of both sides. There is Armond White on one side, Oprah on the other, and a whole bunch of people with varying views, in between:
On his blog, Televisual, he wrote that Precious was “by far the scariest movie for anyone invested in having only ‘good’ representations of black people (‘The Cosby Show!’) in film and TV.”
In that case, “Precious” need not apply. Set in Harlem in the late 1980s, the movie focuses on Claireece Jones, a teenager known as Precious, who is sexually and emotionally abused by her enraged, foul-mouthed mother, Mary (played by the actor and comedian Mo’Nique). They rely on welfare; Precious is H.I.V.-positive; and the first of her two children (both by her father) has Down’s syndrome. Precious fantasizes about having a light-skinned boyfriend and about herself as a thin, white girl.
Joe Drake, president of the film division at Lionsgate, the movie’s distributor, sidestepped a response to the more negative charges about the movie.
“Precious has become imperative viewing and entered the cultural conversation in an organic, impassioned way,” Mr. Drake wrote in an e-mail message. “We are proud to be a part of this phenomenon.”
Sapphire, the author of “Push,” said it was too late in the day to worry that the film’s themes and images were somehow stigmatizing or inauthentic.
“With Michelle, Sasha and Malia and Obama in the White House and in the post-‘Cosby Show’ era, people can’t say these are the only images out there,” Sapphire said. “Black people are able to say ‘Precious’ represents some of our children, but some of our children go to Yale.”
“Child abuse is not black,” she added. “What do you call the man in Austria who imprisoned his daughter for years?”
She defended her title character as a positive “Oliver Twist-like” figure, who grew out of the stories of the young people she met in New York in the late 1980s, when crack and AIDS emerged.
“Push,” which was controversial when it was published in 1996, is also back at the top of best-seller lists.
That the character can’t be seen as anything other than “a black girl” is proof enough that we still have a long way to go. I suppose that is because the cliches are already so deeply embedded there is no stepping out them. I see a universal story of abuse — it recalls a time I remember quite vividly, walking up to a restaurant and seeing a mother bullying her teenage son, physically threatening him as he backed down. He could have easily taken her down but a lifetime of dominance made it impossible to do so. Being the busybody that I am I glowered at the woman, and if the boy had been a kid I would have intervened. They were white, however. So yes, on the one hand you have Lee Daniels’ assertion that the black community is dealing with abuse passed down from slave owners to slaves and from thence into the black community.
Daniels talks about witnessing it in his own life at the hands of his father and seeing it with other kids in his community; he once saw his uncle beat his toddler son for not eating his rice. This is not just a black community thing, particularly the sexual abuse, which happens far more in white communities than in any other culture. Imprisoning a girl and raping her repeatedly seems to be a singularly white and western thing to do, although those are the only stories we hear about. Perhaps it goes on more in areas the news has long since neglected.
Daniels isn’t the only person I’ve ever heard on this subject but his is the most timely, and he is being attacked by people who really want to see images of the black community portrayed differently on film.
Another interesting article on the subject can be found at The Grio:
For the ancestors of today’s African-Americans, the physical violence of slavery — including whipping, beating and other acts — served to humiliate them, break them, and keep them in control.And even after slavery up until today, many black parents have disciplined their children by giving them a “whoopin” or a beating every now and then, some more often than others. Everyone has heard the story about the child whose grandmother directed him or her to go to the backyard and select a “switch.”
I have absolutely no authority to speak on the matter, I acknowledge this completely. I do know something about abuse, however. I also kind of feel like it’s time to let artists be independent of their community and just tell stories. Can Lee Daniels tell a story without inflicting a negative image on the black community to the world? I don’t really know the answer to that and, as I said, I’m not really the right person to be answering it anyway.
88 Responses for "Precious Pressing Buttons, Inspiring Debate"
And no one better take this as backlash because that is so far from what is. It’s just a debate. And last time I checked, that is perfectly OK. It inspires people to see a movie more AND gives the movie a sense of importance.
I don’t have any objections to Precious on the cultural grounds being discussed. My problems with the film are based on cinematic grounds, but these flaws are quibbles more than anything else.
There’s much to like and to admire about Precious, both the film and the character.
I agree whole-heartedly with you, Sasha. It reminds me of a great story that involves my dad. He once worked at Long John Silvers (not anymore, he’s an engineer at NASA), but when he was at the cash register one day, he saw a family that was in line and the dad was bickering and telling his kids to shut up. The kids didn’t say anything, for they were obviously afraid of their own father and the he was completely oblivious to the fact that he was acting like a jackass. Finally, when the guy came to my dad at the cash register, instead of actually serving the guy my dad told him to get out and that he won’t serve the guy here. Naturally, the guy was stunned to hear a guy at a cash register at Long John Silvers say this to him, but his kids gave my dad an extremely thankful look, and an admirable look at doing the thing they could not have done themselves.
My dad never mentioned if the guy was black or not, but that was besides the point. Abuse is not tolerable, no matter the color of your skin. Anyone remember hearing the story where this kid killed his younger brother just because he had dessert when he wasn’t supposed to? I’m glad films like “Precious” are coming out. It may not be perfect, but it’s making us come to terms with the fact that there is a lot of ugliness in America, mainly in domestic disputes. To ignore that and continue living in a state of self-perpetuated ignorance would be the greatest sin of all.
The book’s author is right, some are like Precious and some go to Yale. Just like not every Indian’s experience is like Slumdog or every gay man’s isn’t Brokeback or every transexual’s story isn’t like Boys Don’t Cry. Whether based on a true story or a book, any story is true for what it is…that singular moment.
Sasha, thank you. You have articulated what I’ve been thinking for sometime but I hadn’t found the words:
“… it’s time to let artists be independent of their community and just tell stories.”
It really should be that simple, shouldn’t it? Unfortunately as a group humans really do tend to adopt the herd mentality and are all together too easily swayed and too easily convinced of what they are “supposed” to think or feel. Wouldn’t it be nice if we could all just experience what ever it is before us and learn from it regardless of what it is? Maybe I’m being too simplistic but I like to think of it as hopeful.
queen oprah, her royal highness approves.
guaranteed best picture winner now.
precious – winner 19 academy awards
I think a big reason why some individuals can’t get beyond race when watching a black-made film, is because Leftists in this country treat the black community with utter contempt. As a result of their worldview, they believe blacks can’t get ahead without the help of guilt-ridden white liberals’ social welfare programs. Just take a look at certain politicians’ constant proclamations to the black community that they are perpetual victims, and that the Government is the answer to their prayers. Personal responsibility and accountability is never stressed.
As such, we get this controversy surrounding Precious. Most of it is conjured up because some film critics can’t get past the pigmentation of those involved with the making of the film. Can’t a film like Precious just stand on its own? Well, probably not. We live in a country where Political Correctness rules the day. And when certain stereotypes are exposed, Leftists jump into a hissy fit.
My other issue with this topic is the definition of abuse. Obviously, the torment ensued onto Claireece is terrible. No child should go through that. But sometimes when I read Leftists’ personal experience with abuse in the public, it makes me question their definition of said term. There is nothing wrong with physically disciplining your child. When I hear the word “whoppin,” I think of spanking. But because of the nature of PC behavior, this is looked down upon tremendously. “You should worry about their self esteem” is the answer to this. Which, in retrospect, does not really help the child in the long run.
Hopefully, this manufactured controversy does not hurt Precious in the long run. This movie deserves every nomination it receives, and then some. What I really love about the film is the fact that Claireece, through her..wait for it…wait for it…own perseverance and PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY does she escape from the monster that is her mother. No liberal welfare program helped her get out of that situation. This is shown subtly through the film, and commend Lee Daniels for doing that.
Oh, can we please shut up about Precious. Nothing has changed in a week. We get it: women still like it, African-Americans still like it, gay people still like it and straight white males still want nothing to do with it. Can we have an article on Sherlock Holmes? That’s a picture I actually want to see.
I think this debate goes far beyond Precious. I truly believe that if you’re going to have a colorblind community, you need a more colorblind view of film. By that, I mean balance.
I’m sympathetic to the plight of Precious. My nieces grew up in similar circumstances, under the same abuse. However, this is NOT my story. I was raised in a loving family with parents who’ve been married for over 20 years, and I have two degrees, including the terminal degree for my field. I also happen to be black, slim, petite, and around the same age as Gabourey Sidibe.
I remember the year that Denzel and Halle won. I was so happy to have this great African-American moment. However, my uncle asked why Denzel has to be a villain in order to be recognized, and why Halle had to be a victim. Now, this year, we have another victim and villain situation. As wonderfully colorblind as I would like to be, I have to ask why it is this way.
The character I’ve connected the most to this year I had to seek out– Jenny Miller in An Education. She came from a pretty functional family like me. I read English literature at Oxford for a summer program. I didn’t feel like I fit in at school at all. Every emotion Carey Mulligan charged through, I can fully identify with. However, would I like to see a film with a woman of color in that same role? Most certainly.
It seems that I have to go to TV shows and sci-fi film to find any semblance of my physical self– intelligent black women who usually don’t dominate the film as much as white leads or are romantic interests with not much to say. Then, of course, there are film and TV comedies, but this is about finding films that are worthy of Oscars. So what is it going to take? Do we have to write our own stories?
This takes nothing away from Precious, but it does shine a light on what could potentially be– a balance for black filmmakers and filmgoers. Why aren’t stories like mine being told yet? And if they will be, will they be recognized by AMPAS? When will successful black women of less harrowing backgrounds become more than what we’ve seen? When will we have our day in the sun?
I don’t know. Before my grandfather passed away, he said he never would have thought he’d see a black president. I hope I live to see AMPAS award films that show a truly colorblind variety.
I truly appreciate that this movie inspires debate. mayeb someday we can work towards making a change in the system
Hunter, if you want to go start a fansite for Sherlock Holmes, by all means go ahead. But acting like a brat and whining for an article on “Sherlock Holmes” isn’t going to get you what you want. On the contrary, people will probably just ignore you, or make you go to your room until you’re done with your tantrum. Come back when you are ready to talk like an adult.
To Marble_Plum:
It can be said that the reason a lot of black actors are recognized by roles that capture villain/victim status, is because most of those in Hollywood are card-carrying Leftists. Most of those left-of-center have a very stereotypical view of the minority population. I know some on this website will blame the older, white male segment of the academy (which, in their terms, translate to “conservative” for some unwarranted reason), as so demonstrated by Hunter’s comments. But most if all in the Academy are left-of-center in their politics. That’s why when actors such as George Clooney claim that the Academy is so ahead of society in terms of social issues (reality check: he brought up Hattie McDaniel winning an Oscar for her role as Mammie in Gone with the Wind; but what he didn’t mention is that the Academy made McDaniel sit in the back of the auditorium because she WAS black), I laugh in response.
Um, Hunter
What the hell does this have to do with straight white men anyway? Plus stop talking about that crap.
Denzel Washington was awarded for playing against type. He’s not as bad as Will Smith in terms of heroic image, but he played a different role and got rewarded it. He should’ve won for Malcom X, or Downey in Chaplin, but he lost for the same reason he won 9 years later.
I have no idea why Halle won. The best sex scene in film?
This whole thing sounds like an elaborate publicity stunt to try to drum up support for awards. Are there really still people out there who think that all African Americans should be portrayed as the Cosbys?
I don’t know what is more boring. That idea, or this desperate attempt to get more ink. Remember, there is no such thing as “bad publicity.” There was that whole item about Monique supposedly not wanting to do press. More ink. About the director taking credit for other people’s work in other films. More ink. Now this. Someone is earning their PR paycheck!
Oh boy! I guess I should have known it was only a matter of time before someone came on the sight to proclaim that the reason some people have problems with Precious is because of the card-carrying “Leftists.” It’s the liberal’s fault, y’all! If you can’t get beyond race in Precious, just blame the lefties.
The Glenn Beck School of Logic.
And Hunter, we get it. You and your straight while male friends do not want to see Precious. Fortunately, I don’t think you and your friends speak for the entire white straight male population. I hope not, anyway.
So, Hunter, straight white men want nothing to do with it? Well, I went on Metacritic and looked Precious up. Of the eight 100% reviews it has received, six are by men. Of those six, five are white. But, of course, they want nothing to do with it!
Now Sherlock Holmes, there’s a good film, huh? Loads of black characters in it, loads of gay ones too! Indeed, Guy Ritchie is known for his movies focusing on the gay black community!
What stright white males is Hunter talking about. Are these the same white males that gave Precious a great score of 91% on rotten tomatoes with 130 reviews. Are these the same white males who gave Precious an 89 on BFCA. Are these the same white males who gave Precious a standing O at the AMPS showing. Are these the same white males who gave Precious all the awards it has won.
Just because you hate the fact that precious is getting outstanding reaview from white males and alot of hype does not mean that we should not talk about it.
These Stright White had alot to say about Precious. Hunter you may need to take a look.
http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/precious/
Sam,
My guess is that you are the first advance vanguard from Andrew Breitbart’s website. Let’s go through some of your falsehoods, I mean, points.
1. Bet you didn’t know that more WHITE people are beneficiaries of “social welfare” programs than anyone else. Of course, underpinning your bleating about said programs appears to be some sort of assumption that ALL black people are in poverty.
2. “When certain stereotypes are exposed”? Huh? I mean, what the fuck, Sam. Conservatives who say “political correctness” are actually saying “I want to be able to say bigoted things in public without consequence”. Then when pressed about said bigoted views the same conservatives turn around and say “I’m not using stereotypes if they’re true”.
3. As for the “treating minorities with contempt”, tell me, Sam, what was the political persuasion of the radio commentator who referred to our President AND Halle Berry as “Halfrican-Americans”?
4. Bet you didn’t know that numerous studies have shown that children who were hit by their parents have a tendency to grow up and hit their children. But that’s ok, because it’s important to instill the lesson that one should often resort to physical action or violence to resolve a problem, eh what?
Maybe you’ll think about this when you’re at home beating the shit out of your kids.
One more thing, the same “all actors are Leftists” crowd spent all of last Awards season bending themselves into little pretzels trying to insist that Slumdog Millionaire was somehow “anti-American” and Dark Knight was a love tome to George Bush.
Hunter, I Hope They Serve Beer In Hell went that a-way.
Well, I would like certain people to get real and shut up about Sherlock Holmes, but you can’t always get what you want, can you?.
Thank you for this great article. If anything, people are critical of Precious because it frankly depicts a truth that many people would rather ignore.
I think ‘Precious’ is the best and most powerful film I’ve seen this year. It’s also one of the best films of the decade. (Much like ‘Push’ is one of the greater contemporary American novels!)
“When certain stereotypes are exposed”? Huh? I mean, what the fuck, Sam. Conservatives who say “political correctness” are actually saying “I want to be able to say bigoted things in public without consequence”. Then when pressed about said bigoted views the same conservatives turn around and say “I’m not using stereotypes if they’re true”.”
Not true at all. I noticed the keyword of conservative, so I’ll give you a pass. But, still an overuse of PC is terrible.
This isn’t debate, its just reactionism.
To Pete:
1) I don’t represent Andrew Brietbart’s website, so your assumption that I do is unwarranted. As per usual, you think because I oppose Leftist ideas regarding race and PC behavior, I somehow represent Breitbart’s website. Foolish. Also, did I ever state that ALL black people are in abject poverty? No, you did. Stop projecting your views onto mine please
2) Have you ever read the U.S. Constitution? I have to assume that you have; however, you do have open hostility towards the first amendment. Even those who speak unkindly about certain segments of the population (e.g. Pete: Conservatives = Racists) have a right to say whatever they want, even if you disagree. It is when those people act in a violent manner is the issue. If they don’t, than their ignorant views are protected. So suck it up.
3) Technically speaking, President Obama and Halle Berry ARE bi-racial. “Halfican American” is just a humorous label that some use to expose the derivative nature of PC ethnicity labels. And I tend to agree. I don’t consider myself an Irish-English-German American do I. We are all Americans.
4) What studies are you basing this on? Because just saying it does not make it true. I think a good parent knows that different types of discipline work on children. Some children require physical restraint or punishment, while others need an extended “time out.”
Lastly, I just want to point out your gross assumption about me beating my kids. This is a perfect example why I laugh at you Leftists out there. Your ilk are some of the most ignorant segments of our population. Anytime someone disagrees with you, your true Fascist colors show. Call me a child abuser and bigot in one statement shows everyone what kind of debater, and more importantly, what type of adult you are. You have a lot of growing up to do. I would suggest you try to be just a little open minded, not empty minded.
I for one am sick and tired of all this “Oprah loves it” bull shit. She likes everything. Such short memories we have; it was just about 1 year ago she was proclaiming “Australia” the best thing she had ever seen. Meanwhile audiences were howling with unintentional laughs during the trailer.
So…if Oprah recommends it, I try to stay away. She is far from what anyone could call discerning. I did see “Precious” this weekend, and found it to be over rated. Best performance there was from Paula Patton.
Sam
1. Oh, so you’re not a Breitbart head. You just happen to use the exact phraseology of his columns and argue your points with the exact same catch phrases that one finds in comment threads. My bad. You’re obviously a free-thinker who chooses to conform word for word with what read. BTW, you said “Just take a look at certain politicians’ constant proclamations to the black community that they are perpetual victims, and that the Government is the answer to their prayers” You said this in regards to what you called social welfare programs. Maybe you didn’t explicitly say that all blacks were in poverty, but you sure as hell implied it.
2. Have read the Constitution. However, if you read what I actually said, you might realize that the word “consequence” can also mean social sanction. Sure, the government can’t actually put you in jail if you scream “fags” at a gay couple on the street, but society at large is perfectly free to call you out for such bigotry. Anti-PC’ers don’t really care about free speech, they just want to be able to publicly hate with impunity.
3. Oh, so making jokes about bi-racial people shows how sensitive conservatives are about race? And when noted conservative Pat Buchanan repeatedly screeches that America was “built by white men”, that’s a further indication of how..umm…liberals hate minorities? By the way, since you’re so “open minded” and aghast at hyphenated Americans, do you consider Muslim-Americans to be “Americans” or “Muslims”? Just curious.
4. Well, my wife is a child psychologist and would be more than capable of pointing you towards the data. Not that you would believe it, because by god, what worked in movies from the 1950’s ought to be able to work today. However, let’s flip this around. Do you have any studies to prove that beating children makes them behave and grow up to be solid citizens.
As for “growing up”, considering you espoused that beating children was ok, implied that poverty is simply overcome through willpower, and that it’s perfectly acceptable to hate others based on skin color or religion or ethnicity, perhaps it’s YOU who needs to grow the fuck up.
I feel truly sorry if you have kids, because they have YOU as a parent.
Sam, I don’t often say this to a reader but your “Leftists! Leftists! Leftists!” shrieking is insipid and more than a little pathetic.
“No liberal welfare program helped her get out of that situation.”
Is there some clue in the movie that Ms. Weiss, the social worker played by Mariah Carey, is a Republican volunteer? Donating her free time between picketing abortion clinics and fund-raising for Sarah Palin? If not, then her agency, her position, and her salary are funded through what sane and compassionate people would call a “welfare program.”
It’s only rabid wingnuts who see the word “welfare” and see “FREE CASH PRIZES FOR THE LAZY!” as it burns their eyes like a hot poker to even look up the word “welfare” in a dictionary.
^
I can assure you, this level of spirited conversation was not happening in Benjamin Button threads last year!
This is WAY off topic, but Sam, is this the compassionate conservatism you follow?
http://thinkprogress.org/2009/11/23/tea-heckle-woman/
I thought you guys were pro-life?
Well, allow me to commend SAM for his well stated positions on this thread. As a conservative, I also realize how destructive the plague of political correctness can be…and as a black conservative, I understand how demonizing those who disagree with you can be categorized as ‘correct’, even if it’s nothing more than pure hatred.
I saw “Precious” last Friday. I sat and watched, and for the rest of that night my stomach was in knots. It is such an unsettling film in so many ways. Wonderfully acted, and while the direction was indeed at times heavy-handed, well paced. I took away no political or social agenda from the film. I didn’t read into what story was being told.
This is a story about overcoming abuse. Not about race or even class. You could have switched these actors with white or Hispanic characters and could have told the exact same story.
It breaks my heart when so-called “black films” are forced to bare the burden of being a representative for blacks in America. “Black Films” can never be just films, I guess. It’s a perceptual ghetto, which is why “serious” black films seem to always dwell on the aforementioned victim/villain stuff. It’s a sad cycle that will only be broken when the line between the “black film” ghetto and “mainstream” pictures becomes blurred. When we start seeing films like “Revolutionary Road” with a middle-class black couple, or “About Schmidt” with an elderly black man (who isn’t Morgan Freeman) is when that line will slowly disintegrate.
Will that be happening soon? I doubt it. Unfortunately, as long as films like “Precious” garner great acclaim, the powers-that-be are going to order up more downtrodden black stories…even if “Precious” isn’t even about that.
Right, because it’s so terrible that we have a program that helps impoverished people who cannot actually help themselves. God, those liberals sure are a nosy little bunch, aren’t they?
But y’know, I’m glad we have discussions like these. It brings out the scum in society so we all have to face the ugly truth that no, we are not perfect and yes, there is quite a bit of discrimination in our midst (whether it be political parties or classifying which ethnicity will like the movie, which is actually quite racist). For that, I thank the filmmakers for making this movie so we can all be a little more honest with ourselves.
33. In a lot of ways, I agree that black filmmakers are in a bit of a ghetto, artistically speaking. You have dramatically inert Tyler Perry films and offensive gangsta films that are stereotypical in the extreme. I think in a lot of ways it’s pretty pathetic that one of the better films of the last twenty or so years about what it’s like to be black in America, Brother from Another Planet, was actually written and directed by a white guy.
However, I vehemently disagree with the premise that Precious is some kind of political agitprop, either to put black people in the “victim” box or to extoll the virtues of liberal-leaning social welfare programs. Precious, simply put, is just a story. A harrowing and uncomfortable one, but a story nonetheless. One told with exceptional passion and artistic quality. If this were a film about an overweight white abused girl, would Armond White have been lashing out? Probably not.
One would like more crossover appeal for black actors, writers, and directors, of course. I do think that if the film and Mr. Daniels end up winning, that some of the barriers will come down a bit.
@ Gregoire -
Actually, you’d be surprised. One conversation on CCOBB got so bad that I’ve deliberately avoided commenting on Avatar this year because I feel no need to pick on a movie that Sasha is so positive about for two years in a row.
To Ryan and Pete:
Boy, you two sure have an open hostility towards Conservative thought. So where do we start…
Pete:
1) Your continual proclamation that I represent that website is absurd. This is just my opinion. I’m not some sort of brain-dead sychophant who regurgitates talking points ad nauseum. Your failure to recognize that is well, your problem. What I was implying with the social welfare programs, is that they were put into place by Liberal Statists in the 1960s. How can you support a program that makes people slaves to the government? On top of that, these programs imply that minorities do not possess the same type of intellectual fortitude that whites do, so the Government should give them an extra boost. This is why I’m thoroughly against social welfare programs. This is also why I believe white Leftists have contempt for their fellow man.
2) Are you implying that because I respect the first amendment that I somehow agree with those who engage in disrespectful behavior towards their fellow man? Through your responses, I can tell that you think I’m some sort of bigot. Your empty-minded thinking is rearing its ugly head again. In this country, citizens are allowed to say whatever they choose, even if said speech is ugly and demeaning. As long as it doesn’t violates someone else’s rights, than its fair game. The key word here is to TOLERATE the speech, and toleration does not necessarily mean accepting it as right. I know it may be hard for you to distinguish between the two terms.
3) Again, your failure to read what I said is obvious. Conservatives joke about it because it is absurd to identify with a country that one never was born in. Every citizen over here is a United States American. Not African, not European, ect. Multiculturalism has done wonders on your psyche. You need to lighten up a little.
4) I’m not going to dispute anything your wife has to say. May be you do have statistics that support your theory. But just because I physically discipline my kids does not make me an abuser. I know liberal academia and our media will tell you this, but that is simply not true. Your ilk our too concerned with kids self esteem and saying that all of them are special. This instills an entitlement complex that grows as they get older. And you are the perfect example of that. Also, I never said that beating your child is ok. I love it how Leftists like you use straw man arguments to get your way. Ridiculous.
And excuse me Ryan Adams, oh tolerant one, you already said it. Welfare programs are abused by many citizens in this country. I know within your Leftist vacuum you don’t want to subscribe to this reality, but it is true. Welfare does make people dependent on Government. And Democrats are the ones constantly supporting this program, albeit in return for votes. If you don’t tell people that personal responsibility can get them out of their situation, then they build an entitlement complex.
“And excuse me Ryan Adams, oh tolerant one…”
If you hit your kids you don’t get my respect. It has nothing to do with tolerating you, Sam. I simply don’t think much of you.
Why does everything seem to boil down to left against right? Black against white? I don’t get it at all. Maybe because I’m Canadian….
Sam,
1. Yeah, you claim not to be a Breitbart head, yet, you AGAIN play one Andrew’s cards. The phrase “Liberal Statist” is right out of the Big Hollywood playbook. AGAIN..more white people are on welfare than black people. Yet, you insist on portraying social welfare programs as seemingly only being on behalf of minorities. Seriously, do you actually read what you compose before posting?
2. The people who scream the loudest about PC don’t even want regular people calling them out when they are being a bigot. But if we’re going to talk about the First Amendment, and “tolerating” speech we disagree with, just don’t be signing any petitions calling for boycotts of stores that don’t explicitly wish you a Merry Christmas when you shop. What’s good for the goose.
3. So, after being systemically discrimminated against, bought and sold as property, and denied full status as Americans, you’re criticizing those people for identifying with their ancestral homeland? I guess that American Jews ought to stop obsessing about Israel because they weren’t born there either?
4. If you physically discipline your kids, you’re pretty close to being an abuser. Basically, you’re conditioning your children to avoid doing something because mommy and daddy might HIT them. And as they get older, instead of falling into line, they’ll rebel more. And you’ll hit them harder. Either way, on a basic intrinsic level, your kids will resent you on a subconscious level. They’ll grow up to miserable authoritarians who go for the belt as option one when Junior throws food on the table. It’s probably no surprise that conservatives favor torturing prisoners, after all they’re already cool with hitting defenseless children. What he-men you are.
BTW, I’m curious as to how you feel I have an “entitlement complex”? Do you know a single solitary thing about me? My parents didn’t hit me, YET I somehow didn’t end up as a “slave of the government” or whatever shiny new catchphrase Andrew Breitbart tells you to use.
By the way, don’t make me fucking laugh about conservative Personal Responsibility. Name me the last time a Conservative Leader admitted real fault for anything or took real responsibility. Hell, you guys STILL won’t take accountability for Katrina, Abu Ghirab, the non-existent WMD, derivative trading that killed Wall Street, tax policies that reward companies for outsourcing, Iran-Contra, Pinochet, Marcos, Enron, and the failure to investigate Bernie Madoff.
One more thing about “Personal Responsibility”
Eliot Spitzer – caught with a hooker – Resigned
David Vitter – caught with a hooker – running for reelection
John Ensign – schtupped a staffer and paid hush money to her family – running for reelection
Tell me, Sam, what was the political affiliation of the person who took personal responsibility and resigned? And what was the political affiliation of the people who didn’t?
It’s the old joke, what’s the difference between Bill Clinton and Newt Gingrich. Newt’s been married two more times than Bill….
I’m 20 years old and my mom still hits me. It’s not a big deal, it’s not like she beats the living shit out of me. Some of my friends who never got disciplined are heading down a terrible path, but I personally wont hit my kids. I just feel like serverly punishing kids works better. This whole discussion is futile guys. Just agree to disagree.
Oh dear. With these kind of debates this film is destined for best picture. If only we could put aside the political arguments and recognise that while the film may be about important issues that deserve attention, it isn’t directed with much skill or restraint. My opinion at least.
People who hate political correctness, welfare, and social consciousness are the people who forgot what this country looked like before them. No, I don’t mean the romanticized oak-lined streets flanked by white picket fences. I mean the place near the train tracks or the landfill.
I’ve met several Sams in my life. They usually come from the east coast, or any big city in the west. Most of the liberals they know (who most likely include their parents) were still grappling with their own residual guilt and were inconsistant and occaisionally hypocritical. They therefore choose what seemed to be a rational alternatve… less because they believe in the bread-and-butter tenants of that ideology but because it appeals to their sense of “honesty”. Anything culturally ignorant or insensitive they may feel or say is suddenly not wrong, it’s right, it’s proper, it makes them better than everyone else because they’re being honest and you’re not. They aren’t the same as the hardcore southern neocons… in fact if they went to the south and saw what really goes into the republican sausage they so readily swallow, they’d spit it out in an instant.
It’s the Alex P. Keaton/Dennis Leary/Carlos Mencia bullshit syndrome.
Wake the fuck up Sam. There are still problems and while you’re out there “being honest” for all us sinners, I’ll be doing my part in my classroom. As it turns out, your honesty does less than a shit for the social problems you so proudly ignore and distort in order to make yourself feel better.
“I’m 20 years old and my mom still hits me.”
chrisw, smack her right back a few times. She’ll soon learn a lesson.
“Your ilk are too concerned with parents’ self esteem and saying that all of them are special. This instills an entitlement complex that will only grow more disagreeable as they get older. Some parents require physical restraint or punishment, while others need an extended time out. That’s what nursing homes are for.” — Sam
I guess some people are too PC to properly discipline their elders.
And seriously, turn off Glen Beck before your definition of Fascist gets any more warped. Right now it appears to mean “one who expresses disgust at another’s viewpoint”. In that case then conservatives are regularly fascists about pornography, abortion, religion, and pretty much anything they feel anything about.
For your edification
Fascism – a political ideology that seeks to combine radical and authoritarian nationalism with a corporatist economic system, and which is usually considered to be on the far right of the traditional left-right political spectrum.
what party does that sound like?
Anyone who thinks hitting is a form of discipline needs some serious help.
Here’s my personal take on this:
No matter how naughty your kid is, no matter if he or she is as annoying as all get out, it is never okay to hit your child. If your kid develops violent behavior (beyond hitting, I mean like *really* sadistic stuff), then get a psychiatrist. Hitting is not going to solve anything.
I was luckily never hit, but I have not been immune to anger gone out of control. When I was but a lad of 4, my brother and I were playing one night and my brother bonked me on the head with a toy horse (the kind that is a long pole with a horse head). He didn’t mean to seriously harm me, he was just playing, hoping to elicit a reaction similar to the ones he saw on “Looney Toons” or “Tom & Jerry”. But I didn’t think it was very funny, but it rather hurt, and I cried. Before my brother could get a handle on the situation, my dad came in the room demanding what all the trouble was about. I explained what had happened, expecting him to give Alex a stern lecture on how it is not okay to hit. Instead, he took one glance at the toy horse, snatched it from the ground, and in one fell swoop cracked it in half with his knee.
Was my dad’s anger understandable? To an extent, I suppose so. But was what he did acceptable? Absolutely not. My father is a good man, and he would never want to hurt me or my brother. But we all have our breaking points, and we have to calm ourselves down before we do something to our kids that we’ll regret for the rest of our lives. I know it was just the destruction of a toy horse, but the anger illicited from that and the violent reaction was enough to scare the shit out of any four-year old.
Odd, this is the second personal story I’ve shared on this board today. How strangely therapeutical.
Just seen it. Mo`nique was beyond incredible but this won`t win BP. Just my gut feeling. BSA for Mo, totally. But nothing else. It`s an OK movie but not something I want to see again. I really don`t need to sit through Mo`nique`s speech(incredible!) and hear all those things again. Just too disturbing. Slumdog 2 this ain`t.
Gabby is so fat, her face hardly moved but she was effective nonetheless. No win, though. Like I said, face barely moved and Mo had the showy role.They dropped the ball with Paula Patton,though. Too much glamour. She wasn`t bad just didn`t fit in the movie. Even Mimi scrubbed her face and gave a fitting performance and Lenny was really cute. Loved Joanne (reminds me of New York) and Jamaican girl, they were hilarious. Cats were absolutely gorgeous.
But Bambi – how do you find time to watch it between 20 showings of New Moon?
Well well, well, if you have to award an oscar to the black peoples because they are black and one oscar to the gay peoples because they are gay, it is going to become more complicate and cinema will have very little to do with the Academy award ceremony.
I hope Precious is at least a decent movie, even if i am starting to think it is not. When is it going to be released overseas ?
Precious will be rewarded anyway, with one oscar or two. Let’us hope it will be well deserved oscars.
And now, ladies and gentleman, you should consider this one :
French speaking american is the only racial group that has been constantly oppressed since the very beginning of American history by the English speaking majority.
They have been deported (the cajuns), deprived until now from their right to freedom and independance and even forced to speak this funny germanic language called english.
“Speak white” they were told, when they are as white as you can be.
As they have managed to survive, how many oscars do you think they should be entitled to, in order to repare the prejudice ?
Marion Cotillard for best actress !! (which obviously she is, anyway !)
Silly, isn’t it ?
#50
I have to leave some NM viewing for next weekend so that it has legs. I know that many geeks are hoping for a crushing drop so we fans must pre-empt that.
Ah yes. Another “Precious” thread, another online collective nervous breakdown.
I read the NY Times piece over the weekend, and I think it accurately depicted the schism among Black people (and as we can see by this site, non-Black people) over this film. To me, this means the film is effective because it seems like everyone wants a say on this subject.
I’m a college-educated Black woman who grew up in the ‘hood, and I saw “Precious” a couple of weeks ago. I think it’s a great film. Very faithful to the book. Great performances; my fingers are crossed that both Gabourey and Mo’Nique win Oscars. Extremely disturbing in parts, funny and entertaining in others. I actually think “Precious” is better than “Push (the book)”.
It’s not fair that Black filmmakers are expected to “represent the race.” No one would watch “A Single Man” and expect it to represent the experiences of all gay men. And why does “representing the race” automatically translate to “the lives of successful, functional buppies?” Child/sexual abuse is just as real in some Black families as it is in families of other races. Same for poverty (although as someone pointed out earlier, the majority of families on welfare in the U.S. are WHITE). Because “Precious” is unflinching in showing that living hell doesn’t make the film a festival of victimhood.
Speaking of victimhood, I find it interesting that the character Precious is solely painted with that brush by pretty much everyone who’s seen the film or read the book. Precious is so obviously the HEROINE in this story! As Sam points out–the one salient point in his otherwise moronic attempt to parrot RNC talking points–Precious saves herself. She knows that she doesn’t deserve the life she has and strives for a better one (although she does has publicly-funded help in doing so. Sorry, Sam for ruining your Ayn Rand moment). It stuns me that that aspect of her story seems to be lost.
And Ryan…re: the “Italian neorealism” scene (yeah, I’m reopening that Pandora’s box). Not only did I think the scene works, I thought it was quite poignant. The way the scene is set up, with the film on as her mother falls asleep, is totally plausible. And even in Precious’ “Two Women” fantasy, her mother’s still a bitch! Now, the fantasy scene that drove me NUTS was the one with the 5-person choir who were badly lipsyncing to a Sounds of Blackness song. I don’t understand why they didn’t try to find a REAL gospel choir! And if Gabourey can sing, why not have her sing for REAL in the fantasy?! Yes, Precious says in the film that she can’t sing. Which is why it would have made perfect sense that “fantasy Precious” can BLOW! That was a wasted opportunity on Daniels’ part.
I think the movie is realistically disturbing and the story is very touching. So when the movie ends people leaves the theather under the influence of its ending and Monique’s monologue towards the end. And that affects their overall evaluation of the movie. It is a good movie but personally i dont think it is the best movie of the year.
Some people ask why movies make black people look like victims. I am sorry but this book is based on a novel written by a black author. So noone makes this movie a black-victim girl story. It is what it is as in the book. Some people just enjoy being a victim and talking about those victim stories.
To be honest, i think of this movie not a black movie but a movie about abuse. It could be a latin or white or asian people too. and that wouldnt change the main story.
What about the following winner list:
Best Picture: Precious
Best Director: Lee Daniels
Best Actress: Gabby Sidibe
Best Actor: Morgan Freeman
Best Supporting Actress: Monique
Best Suppporting Actor: Anthony Mackie
Best Animated: The Princess and the Frog
It is Obama year anyway!
So after then some people may start asking questions about movies about other non-white people as well..This country is not only black and white people!
No Hispanic American or Asian American person has won a major lead acting award but who cares?? It is all about black people and their problems, their movies!!!
I don’t think people are necessarily, myself included, dismissing Precious as simply a victim, but her narrative is not the sole narrative of African-American females. The only other black film that’s gotten this much attention by the Oscars is The Color Purple. There are definitely similarities between Precious and Celie– abuse, illiteracy, finding yourself. Nobody’s saying that’s not a reality (today or yesterday), but it’s also time to show other black female narratives that are just as real. I’m not expecting Lee Daniels to tell this story, but someone has to.
Why isn’t 35 Shots of Rum getting the same attention? Because it doesn’t have the biggest names or the biggest backing? It’s gotten better reviews than Precious. These are characters who are minorities and dealing with far different problems. Even Armond White liked it. I know it’s small, foreign, but hey, it’s a different narrative that deserves some kudos. I think a film like this should be made just as available as Precious.
And yes, I’d like to see multiple, diverse narratives for Hispanics, Asians, etc. But my post was mainly about my perspective as an African-American filmgoer.
55. Gee, judging by your rather hateful last blast in your post, I’d bet you’re one of those “I’m not a bigot, why I’m color blind” type of conservatives, although not so “color blind” as to refrain from posting crap like what you did. Obviously, the best way to portray a story about black people in such a way as not to offend easily offended whites is to instead present a story about white people?
55. By the way, I think the word you were grasping for is “Latino”. “Hispanic” is about as relevant as “Oriental” or…umm…”Colored” these days.
Marble Plum,
yes 35 shots of rum is a very good movie. I only wish more people could see it.
regarding Precious, I left the theatre thinking Precious not as a victim at all..How many people could do what she did at the end? My point was this: It is a story based on a book. May be it is time for black people to come up with stories about successful, well educated black people.I personally have black friends: MDs, PhDs. men and women. I am sure they have interesting personal stories that need to be told too.
I remember reading an article about a black judge. In that article, she says that in the court room she has all the power but once she hits the street she feels vulnerable. To be honest as a non-american who didnt grow up in this country i cannot understand all these race relations. But still I am sure there are many more interesting stories out there.
And I didnt watch this movie thinking of black people. It was a story about abuse which is unfortunately a universal phenemenon.
Pete:
you are one of those who make personality judgments based on a few lines on this website. You just made me laugh: me being conservative??? Yeah sure…and I am from MARS too!
To say “it’s another movie about poor black people” marginalizes the fact that there are black families who struggle.
It is part of Amerian culture (unfortunately) that the attitude of some is “we’re in a white man’s world, so why even try to succeed?”
If it wasn’t clear to you that Precious chose to rise above that stereotype, to not be a statistic, then you weren’t paying attention.
@Marble Plum – Films with successful, educated Black men and women as main characters: Love Jones, Waiting to Exhale, The Great Debaters, Medicine for Melancholy, The Best Man, How Stella Got Her Groove Back, Soul Food, Something New, and about 90% of Spike Lee’s filmography! And then you have films like Killer of Sheep, compensation, Mississippi Masala, Daughters of the Dust, Ballast and To Sleep with Anger–”art” films with Black characters who don’t have degrees or professional careers, but who have unique stories to tell.
Should there be more films that show the true spectrum of African American experiences? Absolutely. But the modern-day depictions of Black folks in film are less one-dimensional than you think. And I think “Precious” strikes a nerve in particular because a lot of African Americans are not comfortable dealing with class stratification within our own communities. Strip away the abuse storyline, and I think many Black people would STILL have issues with the film.
Somewhere, Oprah must be happy — we’re talking about her film.
Couldn’t read all the arguing here but really liked DBibby (#43) and filmfemme (#53) and a couple others.
filmfemme, I’m talking about Oscar-nominated films in general. I know those exist, but rarely do they go on to be recognized by AMPAS, the Golden Globes, etc. Sure you see them at the Image Awards or the BET Awards; those awards shows aren’t bad by any means, but being recognized by the Oscars is a horse of a different color (no puns intended). Remember the controversy when Do The Right Thing wasn’t nominated? Spike Lee has made some excellent films but he has yet to win an Oscar. There are still some barriers to break through.
Ryan-Just remember that the majority of conservatives still believe that Obama “stole” the election. With the help of Acorn of course, which according to them is an evil group that does evil deeds like try to get poor people housing. LOL. You can’t argue with them because they make things up in their head and then present it as fact. i.e….Beck. LOL.
Don’t get me wrong, Conservatives, I am not really a liberal, more of an independent-but your party and your mind set have surpassed the point of crazy and gone down the road of insane. Which can be proven with any of your comments from this post.
Like John Stewart said, “If Obama cured World Hunger, conservatives would blame him for obesity.”
I really hope people don’t think AMPAS should reward this film simply because Obama was elected.
I fail to see the Obama connection. Aren’t we supposed to be seeing a universal story in Precious, past the color of her skin. If this is meant to be another message of hope for the black community, have we really dialed back our expectations so far in 12 months?
2008: Yay! Any black kid can grown up to be president!
2009: Yay! Any black victim of HIV and incestuous rape can keep her spirits up!
Ryan,
It’s pretty simple here. If Precious was an overweight white girl, the movie’s artistic and awards merits would be praised without the Armond White kind of qualifiers attached. But, whoa Nelly, a film with a black protagonist and suddenly people are getting weirdly angry that such a film is being touted for awards?
The more “color-blind” a person claims to be, the more likely they are to put a “yeah, but…” qualifier when an African-American achieves something they hadn’t done before. Lest you think I am making an Obama commentary here, I remember the same kind of “yeah, but” talk when Tony Dungy became the first black coach to win a Super Bowl.
Pete, I will disagree, respectfully of course.
68. No problem. I would encourage you to pay attention the next time an African-American achieves some sort of cultural or sporting milestone akin to Tony Dungy being the first African-American coach to winning the Super Bowl. I can guarantee you that in the same sentence with “they are the first Black American to achieve abc…”, you will see the qualifiers. Some little factoid thrown in there to make the achievement less impressive or less legitimate.
Keeping in the sports angle. Take NFL quarterbacks. A succesful white quarterback is more often than not praised for their cerebral nature or leadership skills. A succesful black quarterback is almost always described exclusively in terms of their athletic ability instead of mental intangibles. This is sort of the thing I’m talking about when I say that AA achievements have weird qualifiers attached.
If Precious ends up winning some major Oscars, I guarantee you that we’ll see this sort of thing.
I think if this film had white people it wouldn’t get any awards recognition, save for, if the performances were as good as the ones we have now.
Black athletes are more athletic because of breeding from slavery, according to Jimmy the Greek and Chris Rock.
By the way, some of those who claim other people are not “color blind” enough are not color blind themselves either. I dont remember how many times I have been called “white boy” in the Bronx. If someone calls me a white boy then i think i have every right to call that person whatever I want! Oh wait a minute. I cannot. That would be rude and politically incorrect. But calling other people “white boy” is not!
Some people just like to create the feeling of “we vs. the others”. That defines and strengthens their own identity.
70. Chris what exactly are you basing your assessment on?
“It’s pretty simple here. If Precious was an overweight white girl, the movie’s artistic and awards merits would be praised without the Armond White kind of qualifiers attached. But, whoa Nelly, a film with a black protagonist and suddenly people are getting weirdly angry that such a film is being touted for awards? ”
I can easily say the same, Pete. Why would the movie be praised, or more praised, if an overweight white girl was Precious? I see that the vast majority of people who have seen the movie don’t get angry, but tend to like the movie. The answer is that it’s an opinion and that we’re veering into what ifs. There’s no real reason, I just think that a movie with this subject matter helps that it was made by African-Americans. I just don’t think if white people were making this movie it would be highly praised. The script isn’t well written, the direction, technically speaking, isn’t very good, etc. What saves the movie is that it’s extremely well acted. It’s an actor’s movie way more than it is a director’s movie. But that’s just my opinion.
69 I think you miss the point of those qualifiers, they are to pat society on the back for doing what they should have done in the first place, not to denegrate the accomplishments of that individual. Tony Dungy is going to the hall of fame in 4 years, not because of the color of his skin, but because he has one of the top 10 winning percentages of all time. In his case, I think making a big deal of his race was more about the racist practice of the NFL not allowing black quarterbacks or coaches. With him capturing the ultimate trophy, no one can argue that a black coach can’t succeed in the NFL and therefore paved the way for more black coaches to be hired.
So what if Lee Daniels does become the first African-American director to win Best Director? You don’t think that merits serious consideration? You don’t think that might make a studio head more willing to hire a black director to helm a mainstream, big budget movie? Would it be doing him or the industry a service to ignore that fact. I don’t see such talk as a qualifier, I see it as a milestone. It may be self-congratualatory and may invite some back-biting from people who hated the film, but if it happens, it must be mentioned.
So, Chris, are you saying that blacks are not held to the same standard, artistically speaking, that whites are?
“So, Chris, are you saying that blacks are not held to the same standard, artistically speaking, that whites are?”
That’s a very general question. There haven’t been many minority directors, so you can’t have a concrete answer. Precious is not Glory. Precious is not Do the Right Thing. Precious isn’t even Boyz in da Hood. All great movies. I think it’s helping Precious that it’s a minority production and there’s nothing wrong with that thinking. People don’t want to say they don’t like it out of fear of being called, well, racist. I thought it had great acting and nothing else. I just don’t think Lee Daniels is very good. It has nothing to do with standards as you say.
@chrisw: FYI, “Glory” was directed by Ed Zwick, a white guy.
Ya, I know. Want to tell me who produced it too?
He’s Jewish too.
btw, Just saw Precious. Not a technical marvel, but boy did it pack an emotional punch. It’s my favorite of the year so far.
…Not a technical marvel,
that’s an understatement. Neill Blomkamp takes $10 mil and makes it look like $80 mil. Lee Daniels takes the same $10 mil and makes it look a student film shot with a rented camcorder.
…but boy did it pack an emotional punch.
anyone else looking for that sort of punch might want to experiment with fisting.
So are you saying that fisting is preferable to watching a film about child abuse?
I take it you hated it Ryan, but from your comments before seeing it that is not a surprise really. Figured you disliked it long before stepping into the cinema (probably the same way I am disliking ‘Invictus’).
Why does this film have to represent a race? Correction, why are people holding this film up as a representation of one race/social group? Can all Chinese people jump really high and dance on top of giant bamboo?
Do all transvestites kidnap size 14 women to skin them?
And do not get me started on how white people are represented in films.
‘Precious’ has moved a lot of people. Some (like me) extremely so. Others who dismiss it seem to take this venomous pleasure is tearing the film down instead of a simple ‘I did not like it’ – but that speaks more of the individual person than the film.
But still, the ‘fisting’ comment was rather offensive, at least I found it in very poor taste. Sorry Ryan, I am sure you meant it to be read as funny.
“are you saying fisting is preferable to watching a film about child abuse?”
Not preferable. Only in this case, comparable.
“I take it you hated it Ryan, but from your comments before seeing it that is not a surprise really.”
Blogosphere: Please, you must experience getting hit in the face with this crude brick before you can fully appreciate it.
Me: Well, it doesn’t sound like something I’ll like, but it is my duty to find out, so alright, let me have it.
[SMASH!]
Me: Um, yeah, just as I suspected. That felt rather crude and brick-like.
And if you think you can get my goat by going after Invictus, Michael, you’re going after the wrong goat.
Not everything has to be about you there Ryan.
Was just pointing out I am not looking forward to seeing ‘Invictus’, pre-judgement and all that jazz (to be honest I do not know your views on the film, only Sasha’s and would never slag off a film on a site whose creator really loves the film – kind of rude imo).
“…would never slag off a film on a site whose creator really loves the film – kind of rude imo.”
though here you are, doing just that.
Sam and bambi make me long for the old days when the only annoyance here was Afrika. Who knew I’d almost miss old Afrika in comparison to these two. Almost.
Fat people are disgusting and gross! LOL
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