This is going to be the last post on this topic but there are still a few things to say. There have been a couple of interesting points made on the exclusion of 2008 biggest film, The Dark Knight. And I hesitate to highlight them only because I don’t want this to be about the inclusion of The Reader. I really do believe that if it wasn’t The Reader it would have been something else; the simple fact is, the Academy just didn’t respond to the film and that is apparently all that matters to them.
Marc Caro writing for the Chicago Tribune talks about the potential ratings nightmare for ABC, closing his piece this-a-way:
But when the Academy denies top recognition to such critically and popularly beloved movies as “The Dark Knight” and “WALL-E” (96 percent positive reviews, $224 million domestic box office, more than double that of “Benjamin Button”), it risks confirming the suspicions of those who think it has grown out of touch with mainstream tastes.
Now ABC has to hope that the millions of people who think they know better than the Academy will tune in anyway. Good luck with that.
Caro’s piece is interesting because it doesn’t just talk about the Dark Knight snub, it also mentions how Miley Cyrus and Bruce Springsteen, not to mention Clint Eastwood, won’t be showing up either. They don’t think about ratings, they don’t think about critics, they don’t think about the public anymore (they certainly used to). So what do they think about? “I don’t know, I just didn’t like it.”
Why then does anyone give a crap about these 6,000 people? Truly, therein lies the question. No one can blame the Academy because they’re just doing what they’ve been doing. Our fascination with them, our focus on their choices, our desire to predict their choices — that’s what’s weird.
Still, the Oscars bring prestige in our culture so that when someone dies it’s always “Oscar winner so and so died today.” It’s right up there with the Pulitzer and the Nobel Peace Prize. Careers are made on winning them. Projects get made because of them. An entire industry revolves around them. They shouldn’t be a big deal but they are a big deal.
The lame-brained way their balloting works, and their refusal to release their vote counts, leads people to believe that they are remarkably out of touch with their bread and butter — who the hell do they think is going to be buying the tickets to the films they produce, act in, direct and write?
Hollywood cannot thrive nor exist in its own little bubble. Not now. Not when the studios are outsourcing to India, not when their slashing jobs left and right, not when it’s so much easier to Netflix it and sit and home on your flat panel and watch the latest movie you figured there was no point in shelling out money to see. There was one movie the broke and tired people of this country did pay money to see. To the tune of $530 million. It wasn’t just the people’s choice; it also had the critics behind it, landing at number two on all of the top ten charts, behind only Wall-E. The Directors Guild, the Producers Guild and the Writers Guild all gave it the thumbs up.
But those who snubbed it – the Globes and the BAFTA – have notoriously questionable taste — and it’s time to start thinking of the Oscars as having such a strong British base that AMPAS should be renamed BAMPAS. The thing is, it’s fine not to like the movie, not to get the movie, not to understand the movie – fine to be “confused” by the third act (it has taken me a while to understand it myself), but to refuse to acknowledge its dominance, its rightful place as easily one of the best FIVE films of the year, is just plain stupid.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKCZ8-ZAT88[/youtube]
Meanwhile, Jonah Nolan wrote a letter to the crew who put up the Dark Campaign site:
hey — not sure who to address this to as it looks like a collective effort, but I just wanted to pass along my thanks.
It’s truly humbling that you guys would take the time and effort to try to get the film recognized. I, like you, was disappointed that Chris didn’t get some recognition this morning, but for Heath and so many of the people who worked so hard on this thing to get nominated is thrilling.
Any nominations for a comic book movie is a thing of beauty no matter how you slice it, and that takes the sting out a bit. Besides, I’ve been to the big show before, and, like any of these things, it’s a little disappointing. Did you know it’s not even an open bar once the show starts? At least this time I would have remembered to bring a little cash so I could buy myself a drink after losing.
The best part of this experience is seeing other people getting passionate about the film the way that we did. It has been a truly incredible experience. So thank you again.
best,
Jonah
It’s important to note two things. The first is that Heath Ledger is now officially a part of two major oversights in Academy history. But continuing to fight for The Dark Knight, or to boycott the Oscars seems like delicious revenge, the truth is that this will do nothing but tempt the Academy to snub Ledger as well. They might just get so sick of the angry mob of fans they decide to dig their heels in and whenever they do that something very unpleasant blooms from their stodgy bottoms. Maybe it’s time to say, oh well. Let’s get on with the show.
The second thing to note is that we ourselves are to blame here for having high expectations. And perhaps for caring too much what they do. They are, after all, their own little club and they can vote for what they like. Really really like. If you’re going to be watching Oscar, one must know how to hold a hand over the flame: the trick is not minding.
120 Responses for "Oscar Shoots Self in Foot and More"
Am I the only one who believes that TDK does not merit an Oscar BP nomination?
Please. Enough of this. Move on.
Like Sasha specifically pointed out, Diego, you don’t have to fully enjoy The Dark Knight to recognize that it IS one of the five best films of last year. It’s not only the second highest grossing film of all time (not adjusted for inflation), but it is the second highest critically praised from 2008. AMPAS is just too stubborn to change its ways.
What is the mission statement of the Academy Awards? Does it actually have one? Examining it might help answer a lot of our questions. I personally wouldn’t pick TDK but it does seem odd that an institution that prides itself in reaching out to the common man would snub the biggest film of the year. Or even WALL-E for that matter.
But who is this mysterious “Academy” that just didn’t give The Dark Knight and the Nolans enough #1 spots on their ballots? I have to say that among those 6000 people there are just a lot of people like the ones who post here who a) didn’t like the film that much, b) had those “third act problems”, c) keep saying “It’s a Batman movie,” etc. etc. And they don’t care how much money it made or what the critics said.
I am neither a teenager, a fanboy, nor a nerd (well, maybe), but I do believe the film should have been nominated. Actually, I know that I am very similar to a lot of Academy members. Just not enough of them.
I really enjoy your site, so don’t take this the wrong way, but you most definitely need to get over it. I don’t think “The Dark Knight” was anything close to one of the five best movies of the year, and it seems the Academy agreed with me and not you.
What would you propose the Academy do? Nominate movies they don’t love because they’re popular? That’s totally ridiculous.
And you seriously think this will affect ratings? NO ONE was going to sit through the telecast just because TDK was nominated that wasn’t going to already. You are delusional if you think anyone knows the nominees before tuning in, or if they even care that their favorite movies weren’t nominated. They don’t care as much as we do! You say the Academy is out of touch, but it is YOU who is out of touch if you think this has any bearing at all.
I can understand why “The Dark Knight” fans are disappointed (and it’s not because I’m disappointed that DiCaprio didn’t get nominated either).
“The Dark Knight” had far more critical success than “The Reader” — in fact, it had more critical success than “Benjamin Button” (although that “Forrest Gump” wannabe is right up the Academy’s alley). “The Dark Knight” also was nominated for a PGA and DGA. And it certainly had a great box office. So what if it’s a movie based on a comic strip? I thought the Academy was trying to be hip?
I confess. “The Dark Knight” isn’t the type of movie I tend to like. But then again, a good movie is a good movie. It’s not supposed to be about what genres one likes, but whether the movie messures up. It should have been nominated.
What a nice graceful letter from Jonah. If only half of the fanboys/girls could react so gracefully.
BTW I do think Dark Knight deserved to be nominated, but some of the reactions here (not by Sasha or Ryan btw) these past few days have been at the least quite dishearting and at most downright hateful.
What you are actually saying is this, So what if they did not like it, they should have still voted for it.
i blame the criric for giving us all hope that the dark knight would get nominated, all the critic had in their prediction, when everyone saw the producer, writer, and director guild nominated the dark knight that give us too much hope that it was a lock. at the end the only thing they truly was reconized is heath leder, and that makes you think if they only nominated him because his dead, and not on his performance. the oscar keep showing us every year that they will never change, and every year we believe they will. so next year let not be surprised by the nominee, cause we all know whats going to be nominated a holocast, an indie flim, a politic flim, and an epic flim.
“…it’s time to start thinking of the Oscars as having such a strong British base that AMPAS should be renamed BAMPAS.”
More to the point: AARP/AMPAS
“I don’t think “The Dark Knight” was anything close to one of the five best movies of the year, and it seems the Academy agreed with me and not you.”
Yeah, I wouldn’t go around bragging about that.
Um. I don’t propose they do anything except recognize the best films of 2008. At the very least, Christopher Nolan deserved a nod for director.
Great piece Sasha although I would put emphasis on TDK EASILY one of the best five films of the year that it should have been a shoo-in– much like The Lord of the Rings movies– popular commercially and critically– which makes the snub really frustrating.
Now let’s move on. The show must go on! Without TDK in the running, I’m rooting for Slumdog Millionaire to take the top prize!
Am I the only one who believes that TDK does not merit an Oscar BP nomination?
Please. Enough of this. Move on.
Read the post. That’s what it said. It’s my last word on the subject but I wanted to say it. Please take your business elsewhere if you don’t like the content.
“The thing is, it’s fine not to like the movie, not to get the movie, not to understand the movie – fine to be “confused” by the third act (it has taken me a while to understand it myself), but to refuse to acknowledge its dominance, its rightful place as easily one of the best FIVE films of the year, is just plain stupid.”
But for all you know every single Academy member DID think it was one of the five best films of the year. But maybe it was number 4 or 5 on all the ballots. By saying it should have been nominated you’re basically asking that the voting members be dictated to by popular opinion. If you were a voting member would you give your number one and two slots to the films you loved the most or to the films you’re told you should vote for?
@#5, and all of those who simply say, “Get over it,”
I can’t begin to imagine what it would be like to run my own awards website, such as this one, but I can assure you that, being a casual reader and frequent visitor here, being subjective is much more interesting than being objective. Imagine if Sasha, as well as the other editors/bloggers, remained completely objective during the awards race. What fun is there to be had? And since when is it a crime to be passionate for a film? If I remember correctly, this is a website solely dedicated to the awards season for film. When a major contender, such as The Dark Knight, receives all types of recognition but is suddenly shunned (I’m talking about the major categories) by the most important awards group, something is the matter. It would be ridiculous and frankly wrong to simply continue running a website like this without having in depth discussion about the Oscar snubs.
Just because Sasha liked The Dark Knight, and feels it was wrong for the Academy to not nominate it in the Best Picture and Director categories, doesn’t at all ruin the credibility of her site. I, for one, didn’t particularly care for The Curious Case of Benjamin Button, but you don’t see me ranting on all the forums about Sasha promoting her opinion that it was one of her favorites.
Take one step back, for a moment, and imagine if Benjamin Button had not been nominated for Best Picture or Director. If that had happened, and Sasha had written a couple of pieces about it, do you think it would be fair to say “Get over it?” What in the hell are you guys thinking? The awards season doesn’t simply entail talking about those movies that made the cut, but rather it also must include talking about those that didn’t, those that were close but somehow didn’t.
The fact is, The Dark Knight failed to make the cut for reasons that we can only guess. However, there is no denial that its failure to make the cut is alarming. Comic book movie or not, The Dark Knight’s exclusion from the top categories is something that needs to be talked about. The film was clearly a favorite among both critics and audiences, so why was it not included?
I’m sick of people saying “get over it.” If you are truly interested in the film awards season, then you should be interested in articles such as this one. If you’re not, then leave. Stop saying “get over it” simply because you didn’t like the film. To be honest, I didn’t like Slumdog Millionaire. At all. And as far as The Curious Case of Benjamin Button goes, I thought it was a decent but ultimately forgettable film. If any of those two were snubbed, I would be knee-deep in discussion about how those two were robbed, despite my dislike for both. The Academy awards should reflect those certain films that deserve recognition. The Dark Knight deserved top recognition, whether the group liked the film or not.
Yes, that’s right, whether or not the Academy liked it, it should have been nominated.
I DID enjoy “The Dark Knight,” and I still don’t think it’s one of the five best pictures of the year.
History may judge differently, but it has the box office and popularity to sustain it. Does it really need Oscar too to validate people’s love for it?
I think “The Reader” is a worthier nominee, myself.
Sasha, would´t you agree that there is a chance for the TDK to win 5-6 oscar or maybe doing a sweap.
The hole world is mad at the academy members rigth now. I, my self is a huge fan of TDK. TDK was my life a hole year. And i was mad with the snub. I expected a snub at the best picture, but not with best director…
Now i’ve taken it to me, and accepted the situation… But my point with the potential sweap is, everybody is yelling at the academy right now. A lot people has come to a point were they actually thinking about boycotting “the biggest movie event of the year”(yeah right Sid) so now i’m thinking, is’nt there a possibly for the members to say a kind of a “sorry” and letting TDK be the biggest winner feb. 22 ??
Also if we’re taken the possibility of that TDK crossing the 1 billion mark with the re-realese this weekend. That will only create more press covertage
@ whoo
“And you seriously think this will affect ratings? NO ONE was going to sit through the telecast just because TDK was nominated that wasn’t going to already.”
It’s been said before, but worth reminding: The two highest rated Oscar broadcasts of the past decade were the years Titanic and LotR:Return of the King won.
The lowest rated Oscar broadcast since 1974 was last year. Last year, when Juno was the only Best Picture nominee that had earned more than $100 mil.
So who’s being “delusional,” whoo?
If the Oscars didn’t care about ratings, they wouldn’t juggle hosts like hot potatoes trying to find the perfect recipe for curly fries.
If The Dark Knight or WALL-E had been nominated, Pauly Shore could host and the ratings would still be through the roof.
Fine, if the Oscars don’t want to be about critical and popular acclaim. Fine, if AMPAS wants to be a private little hen party with insider clucking and whisper campaigns. But why should they expect anybody to show up at their party if we know nobody cool is going to be there?
For me, Benjamin Button and Jamal Malik and Harvey Milk are plenty cool enough. (And Hanna Schmidt would spice up any party.) But for millions and millions of other people, it’s gonna be, “What else is on?”
So? So nothing. If nobody watches except me and Sasha, that’s fine with me. I don’t care what ratings the Oscar broadcast gets. But I’m gonna get sick really quick from hearing the post-mortem the day after, when everybody is blaming Hugh Jackman or pointing fingers at the producers and director if the rating tank.
@ Deniz
“Sasha, would´t you agree that there is a chance for the TDK to win 5-6 oscar or maybe doing a sweep.”
I’m not Sasha, but I like to pretend I’m her evil twin, so I’ll answer.
The same awards that TDK is most likely to win are the ones Benjamin Button needs to avoid an embarassing shut-out. Nobody wants to see Benjamin Button shawshanked in the shower. If the past few years of “share the wealth” are any indication, Benjamin Button and TDK will have to divvy up the tech awards between them.
So I don’t see TDK winning more than 3 or 4 categories. It’s gonna be this year’s Bourne Ultimatum, Deniz, I feel pretty sure.
I don’t understand why it would make any sense for Academy members to vote for a film they don’t like. Is that really what you are saying? That even if they didn’t like it, they should have voted for it?
If you didn’t like the movie, why would you think it was one of the best of the year?
Sasha-
I hope it is not your final word on the TDK snub. I hope you and we continue to rail about it because the Academy self-parodied itself Thursday morning and it needs to know how stupid it looked. Like someone said, the Oscars needed TDK a lot more tha TDK needed the Oscars.
What bothers me is that TDK blazed a trail for some comic book movie to get a nomination sometime down the road. The sad thing is, that film will probably not hold a candle to TDK’s brilliance and that is disappointing.
The TDK snub was pretty much the final straw for me. I have been scratching my head at the Academy’s choices and arcane rules (like its disqualification of A Very Long Engagement in 2004) for years now and this particular snub of TDK means I’m done watching. I’m done caring. Just as I wouldn’t care about the man on the street’s opinion as to what the best films of the year are, I don’t give a s*** what the Academy purports to tell me is its best films of the year. The sad thing is that sometime in the near future, the Academy will change its ways, but many of us who are American film fans will be too far removed to care.
“If I remember correctly, this is a website solely dedicated to the awards season for film. “
Thank you Jake!
This is AwardsDaily not OscarStalker. We’ve had a great ride all season, with lots to be thrilled and excited about.
Instead of one big honeymoon night with Oscar, the “awards season” has become a massive marathon orgy that goes on for weeks.
The final orgasm of an orgy is rarely the best one, right? (…perhaps I’ve said too much…)
the big problem is that people still thinks the academy is sort of democracy when actually is an oligarchy.
“I really do believe that if it wasn’t The Reader it would have been something else; the simple fact is, the Academy just didn’t respond to the film and that is apparently all that matters to them.”
Ah, but the Academy DID respond to The Dark Knight; it picked up 7 nominations in technical fields, proof positive of support by those factions. Sure, it got the typical loud summer movie attention in the sound and FX categories, but it also scored in hardcore, ultra-competitive fields like editing, art direction, and cinematography. So it’s not like the film picked up just one sympathy nomination for Heath Ledger.
You know these same members wanted to see The Dark Knight in the Best Picture category. Maybe it’s just the confusing points system, or maybe it’s something bigger. I wonder if the Academy itself is too divided between the above-the-line groups (actors, writers, directors, producers), who clearly fell for The Reader instead, and everyone else, who mostly didn’t (it received 1 tech nom).
By sheer numbers, the actors branch deserves the largest share of blame for the Best Picture snub, but what happened with the Director and Adapted Screenplay categories? There’s your mystery. The DGA and WGA were pro-Knight; the directors and writers branches of the Academy, less so.
Someone needs to write about this.
The Dark Knight was not that good a movie. It doesn’t deserve the attention it has received nor does Health Ledger deserve a nomination. I just don’t get it.
@ MDK
“Sasha-
I hope it is not your final word on the TDK snub. “
I hope not too. This site has never been about worshipping Oscar as much as it’s been observing it, studying it, dissecting it, mocking it (when it’s begging to be mocked), and appreciating it when it gets things “right” (that is to say, when Oscar aligns with our own tastes.)
This won’t be my final word on it, MDK, unless I’m asked to shut up.
Ryan,
As a TDK fan, i’ll be more than happy to see it win at least 4 oscar… We know that one is secured. So what will be the other ones
Well, they’re on their way to HBO and there’s really nothing that can stop their ratings slide. EXCEPT themselves!
And now be prepared, be very prepared for Harvey Weinstein to turn everyone’s Oscar applecarts upside down with “The Reader.”
But if you PARSE just who in the Academy DIDN’T vote for TDK. It wasn’t the tech guilds. They nominated the living daylights out of all those categories. It wasn’t the directors(though they did nominate Stephen Daldry when the DGA didn’t). It wasn’t the writers’ branch.
It was THE ACTOR’S BRANCH, folks.
To understand how they think, and theyall think as one, they think of “HACT-TINK” with a capital “H” and Christian Bale’s teched-in voice turns a lot of people who train their voices all their lives to express E-M-O-T-I-O-N would resent that electronic sound coming out of the cowl ‘n’caped guy.
Now “The Reader” has TONS of great acting in it. Great roles, Lena Olin, f’r'instance, as well as Kate the Great’s…It’s literary…Playwright David Hare writing at his best, perhaps, ever, here, as far as an adaptation is concerned, writing great characters…
And Harvey is going to wear Daldry, Hare, Kate, and Roger Deakins out with his relentless style of campaigning.
Y’know he knows every single member of the Academy personally and has, in the past, not been adverse to CALLING THEM INDIVIDUALLY as legend has it…and convincing them that they MUST vote for “The Reader” which is a vote for High Art and Culture….AND BRITISH talent, as well as German…
He’s just not going to stop and he’s got his eyes set on the prize = Best Picture.
I’m beginning to get a sense that “Slumdog” isn’t nearly as great a slam-dunk as it looked LAST week.
Does it really have the bread-and-butter guild support of the Hollywood techies? Since it was made in Mumbai….and directed by a Brit.
And the academy notoriously does not like all that jumping-around-kind of editing…like in “Slumdog”
And yes, Sasha’s right about Heath’s being snubbed before…And if all this TDK raving continues, they could all vote for Robert Downey, Jr. another COMEBACK story, to be sure…I mean, l love RDJ, but…Heath IS legend in TDK…I hope all this blowback doesn’t backfire!
Dark Knight fans sound a lot like pissy Republicans this week. Dark Knight fans who insist they are real “movie lovers,” but won’t watch and support the Oscars since their choice did not win the BP slot are NOT true blue movie lovers.
Sorry guys, but you sound a lot like the pissy Republicans I know who would not watch any of the Presidential Inauguration because their guy did not win. Yet, Republicans still say that they are the ones who are the most “American,” and love America the most.
Dark Knight fans who boycott the Oscars should not call themselves real movie lovers, just like Republicans who boycotted watching the Inauguration should not call themselves true blue Americans.
I hope Ledger is snubbed, if only so that I can enjoy all the uproar once again. I do believe that if they snub Ledger, then before the Academy can come out of the Kodak theater after the ceremony, it will set afire by mad raving fans of TDK.
#18 Excellent points, Ryan.
The Oscars were actually launched initally to promote Hollywood.
looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
What would be the other ones, Deniz? In my dreams, they’d need to be big ones.
Of the categories where Button and Bat go head to head, I think Benjamin Button has these wrapped up:
Best Art Direction
Best Visual Effects
Best Make-Up
Best Film Editing, I think, has to belong to Slumdog.
So there go 4 possibilities. *poof!*
We know what that leaves:
Best Supporting Actor: Heath Ledger
Best Sound Editing
Best Sound Mixing
…and Best Cinematogrpahy: Wally Pfister
To use our buddy Craig Kennedy’s expression, when I watch the Blu-Ray of The Dark Knight, I want to lick the screen. The cinematography is lush, expressionistic, atmospheric, glossy, sleek, gorgeous, and holy whoa, those IMAX scenes felt like the top of my skull was being lifted off.
Would Roger Deakins be so pissed to lose one more time? They nominated him for the wrong movie anyway.
But if all the cool people in the Academy (all 12 of them) vote for either TDK or the amazing dynamic work of Anthony Dod Mantle, then that leaves all the “postcard cinematography” traditionalists to vote for Deakins.
Tough to find four wins for The Dark Knight that feels satisfying, isn’t it?
Ryan, you are assuming that people who put on the Oscar show and the Academy (ie 6000 members) care for the same thing.
DK snub makes it clear that they are oblivious to such things. What’s worse it that they are able to get away with snubs like Brokeback and DK because of the cloak of anonymity. I would love to see the rankings.
IMHO. Frost/Nixon is the one that’s being unfairly rewarded by EVERY group.
Hey Jake, let me start by saying I am totally on board.
I just wanted to point out that TDK got an 82 on Metacritic, which, while really good, is 15th this year, behind Slumdog and Milk of the Oscar nominees, but ahead of Frost/Nixon, The (not so) Curious Case of Benjamin Button and the critical flop, The Reader.
Maybe you are referring to Rotten Tomatoes, which I refuse to patron as I believe it has a flawed ratings system (fully positive review is treated the same way as a largely positive review, all critics are equal.)
“What you are actually saying is this, So what if they did not like it, they should have still voted for it.”
Actually, yeah, kinda. You guys are all throwing around the word “like” too much. Whether they liked it or not shouldn’t matter. Taste has nothing to do with it. Undeniably, The Dark Knight was one of the most important films of these past few years. To the art of film as well as to the business. No film melded genre so seamlessly this year. Certainly its technical achievments were numerous, and the Acadamy has obviously recognised that. The thing is, I’m positive that The Dark Knight is going to score more statues than its biggest competitor, The Curious Case of Benjamin Button. They share 6 categories. Once the awards are all given out, it will be apparent which will have made the bigger impression on the film community. I’m seriously calling that Benjamin Button gets no more than 2 Oscars for all its nominations. Whether or not I liked it aside, it is simply not an effective film.
As you said it, i also think that the academy will spread out the awards.
I think these 5 films will win these awards.
Ben Button: Director, visuel effects, makeup and art directorion. 4
Slumdog: Movie, Adapted screenplay, song. 3
TDK: Editing, Cinematography, S-actor, Sound Mixing. 4
Milk: Actor, Original screenplay. 2
Wall-e: Animated, Sound effect, score. 3
i know, there are some other categories left.
I love the way so many people here are only now waking up to the fact that the awards for the Best This, Best That and Best Other, seldom actually go to the genuine best. In 1997, Ang Lee’s monumentally good The Ice Storm – which has hardly been bettered as a film about America – got ZERO nominations. In my eyes, it’s a staggeringly better film than any of the contenders this year. Or most years. So save the baloney about how the Academy used to be so right on the money and isn’t now. It never was. Driving Miss Daisy won Best Film. That should tell you everything you need to know. The Oscars are a circus. That’s all. Deal with it and lighten up a little, please.
I’ve enjoyed reading AD/Oscarwatch for the last five or six years. However, this has been the worst awards season for this site and I’m not sure that it is still enjoyable to read. Every year there are worthy movies that are snubbed by the academy, but I have never seen this level of grovelling for any of those other films. Whether or not TDK is objectively “easily within the top 5 films of the year,” the amount of attention given to it on this site is not warranted and decreases the value of the site. This is not a place for awards watchers to go, it is a place for TDK fans to go. Although I consider myself to be a fan of TDK, I do not think that it should have been nominated for best picture or director. Because of that position, I no longer feel that I can count myself as a member of this new “awards daily community.”
On this site, everything comes back to TDK. It would be nice if that wasn’t always true.
@ redwine:
I am almost expecting Ledger to get snubbed, now, anyway. The sting of that, while even more laughable than TDK getting snubbed, won’t generate the same reaction. The Academy put us all on notice: Ledger should feel fortunate he even got nominated.
TDK was the hero the Oscars needed, but didn’t deserve.
(That was from the “confusing” third act some of you can’t seem to grasp)
MDK, it doesn’t remotely seem to me that the Oscars need TDK reading what people are saying over here, it rather seems to be the other way round. The TDK fans were looking for the Academy’s approval or else their film would likely be relegated to successful blockbuster category.
while i like the dark knight in general, i don’t think its fair to not understand why some people don’t think it’s one of the five best films of the year. i understand that it has its place as a critically acclaimed and commercially popular film, and it was a huge part of american culture and cinema this year. i personally can see that it would not have been a bad thing for it to be nominated, as a milestone for the academy itself and as a way to bring AMPAS back into relevance. but i really disagree with the assumption that someone is “out of touch” because they don’t think its in the top five. its hardly close to mine. its much more pretentious for you to assume someone like me, who doesn’t have a place for TDK in their top five, is “out of touch” than it is for me to honestly believe that, at times, it was kind of a mess. you can be a fan of a movie without insulting the people who don’t necessarily think it was the best thing ever… you’re reaching fangirl status here. don’t let me down, sasha.
It is interesting that when people write that The Dark Knight is not one of the five best (in parentheses one must add “Oscar eligible” or “in contention”) films of the year, they almost never name what those five films actually are.
I agree with Diego. Get over it. People should be more outraged that Slumdog Millionaire, which is not one of the best films of the year, is the front-runner. I loved The Dark Knight, but am not that bothered by it being snubbed for Best Picture. It did get plenty of other nominations. It’s not like it needs the exposure. It’s one of the biggest films ever and everyone and their grandma has seen it. I don’t think it’s the best film of the year either. The only reason I kind of wanted it to get nominated is because it would help out the Oscars in the ratings and give all of the other films nominated a lot more exposure.
I would just like to say, there is a difference between voting with your heart and voting with your mind. I truly believe that the reason The Dark Knight was not nominated was because it was on most people’s ballots as a #3, #4, or #5. It was one of those films that many thought SHOULD be nominated, but that wasn’t anybody’s favorite in the Academy. It was appreciated because of everything that it accomplished whether or not somebody actually LIKED the film.
I personally did not love Slumdog Millionaire, but I understand what was good about it. I can appreciate what it did and I know it’s a good film, just not one that I particularly loved. That said, if I were an Academy member, I would likely put it in my top five as a #4 or #5 because it deserves to be there.
There’s a difference between voting what are your five favorite films and what are the five best films. Usually, it is time that will indicate this. 10, 15, 20 years from now, I highly doubt most will remember The Reader (which I thought was terrible), Frost/Nixon (also, do not see the hoopla), Milk (which I loved), or even Slumdog Millionaire. People WILL remember The Dark Knight, and that is something that the Oscars will have to live with, similar to all the other landmark films that have been snubbed by the Academy.
The Dark Knight was one of the five best films of this year whether it was one of your personal favorites or not.
10 years from now everyone will be talking how TDK wasn’t nominated although its a great film….
A big mistake, a really big mistake, AMPAS, its a comic carachter film, get over it, its not one of the greatest for that
One again, AMPAS, get over it…!!!
Thank God the ratings are going to speak very clearly
I’m more disappointed for Nolan than the film itself. No movie from 2008 is without its flaws. TDK certainly had plenty of flaws, enough to justify not including it in the top 5 for sure. But his direction was top notch. To be honest I am equally disappointed that Springsteen wasn’t nominated for The Wrestler, and in fact that the film itself wasn’t nominated. Oh well though. I’m used to it. Zodiac was my favorite of 2007 and it got zero nominations.
One thing that people NEVER understand is that AMPAS is not qa group who sits down and says: I like Holocaust movies. They’re a huge group and they vote individually. We cannot say that they should’ve nominated X and Y, because it’s not a consensus… it’s more of a poll.
Hopefully this means that Nolan and the Batman Begins franchise hold one of those “Oscar I.O.U.’s” (Ledger has one of those from Brokeback Mountain)
i dont understand that why r we expecting academy to respond to commerical success? since when academy or oscars were supposed to pander to box office? it is very amazing coming from a website dedicated to oscars. the argument that TDK was the year’s biggest film so it should b in best pic group is pretty absurd. In fact i still hold against oscars to award titanic so much in the past.
wasn’t oscars about quality instead of how much money it made or how much general public liked it (as said in the article here and at chicago tribune)???
@ redwine and those who claim TDK’s merits were limited to its commercial success:
The DGA, PGA, WGA, ACE and Editors Guild say hello. You are conveniently forgetting TDK’s near unanimous critical acclaim (94% on RT and 82 on MC) in addition. So we have critical approval, guild approval and $531 million dollars worth of audience-approval.
Can any of the other films claim that trifecta?
#50 – No one is saying the Oscars should expect the Academy to award “commercial” success. The point is that “The Dark Knight” was critically successful and earned PGA and DGA nominations. It’s not like people are saying the Oscars should have nominated “Dumb and Dumber” because that movie made a lot of money.
Jeez, I’m not even a “Dark Knight” fan, but I can understand how fans of the movie would be upset.
The trouble with basing things on the guild nominations is that they can only ever show the breadth of support, not the depth. For all we know The Dark Knight may have just scraped in with the DGA, the WGA and the PGA. Missing ensemble at the SAGs surely give a better indicator of a possible lack of support for The Dark Knight.
‘It is interesting that when people write that The Dark Knight is not one of the five best (in parentheses one must add “Oscar eligible” or “in contention”) films of the year, they almost never name what those five films actually are.’
For me – My Winnipeg, Wall-E, Milk, The Wrestler, In Bruges. If Winnipeg wasn’t eligible this year then replace it with Gomorrah.
As I said in my GG haiku: it’s a lot more fun to predict the Oscars without having seen any of the movies. Because (think about it), there is a whole industry within the industry surrounding “Oscar films” — the type of film that everyone knows the academy is likely to take seriously as an awards contender. Production companies know this, as is clear by the way release dates are scheduled and promotional campaigns organized. So, being good or even popular isn’t really the issue — it’s about maintaining the appearance of prestige.
This system probably accounts for 4 of the 5 nominees in most categories every year. Thank goodness for the proportional voting system that allows non-Oscar films to get just enough attention to squeak in a nomination every year.
This is also the problem I was bringing up in terms of the racial distribution of the nominees. I know the voters aren’t trying to say that whites are the only consistently good actors, but I have to wonder why every year there are so few “Oscar-worthy” films and performances. I think there’s a brand that’s been developed, and it generally involves films about white people’s problems, often from a historical era. I imagine films about minority experiences have a more difficult time getting seen as Oscar contenders, from the pitch to the release date. The proportional voting system may help propel some of these performances into nominations, but otherwise there are too many barriers to break through.
I have seen a lot of postings on this site from very passionate TDK fans. Some of them are quite brilliant and perceptive. And then there are those that just like to bash the Academy and post vile and officious things about them.
I think that we all have to agree that the Academy has been around for a long, long time and whether you like it or not, they will nominate actors and films in the years to come.
Though this is a cool site to begin with, it is still too small and insignificant for the Academy to mind. What are we really accomplishing with all this negative Academy bashing?
The Academy will not dignify all the hoopla here with a response.
You can probably already count on that. Or I could be wrong.
Alright, so I’m on of the people who saw The Dark Knight six times in theaters, once in IMAX, and loved every minute of it. Found no movie to compare it to this summer besides Wall-E. Do consider it one of the most fantastic movies I’ve seen in a while. But I don’t think it’s top five of the year. It’s certainly in the lower half of my top ten list. So to all those saying that you don’t have to have enjoyed it to consider it one of the top five of the year, I agree that for the most part that holds true with lots of movies, but The Dark Knight, plain and simple, was beat as the year came to a close. As far as I’m concerned six other movies were better than it by the years end, The Reader included. I think the reason so much anger has come from this “snub” (as we like to call it) is because the film made a ridiculous amount of money, and still managed to be both artistic, intelligent, and moving. But a movie doesn’t have to make a lot of money to be the best of the year. If it does make lots of money, then that really just means more people heard about it and decided it looked interesting. I see very few people challenging the idea that No Country for Old Men and There Will be Blood were the top movies of last year and only made a little more than The Curious Case of Benjamin Button’s gross at this point in time ($114 mill combined compared to $106). I know nobody really thinks that the money is what makes it a great film, but the popularity of the movie is what makes everyone so angry over the “snub”, and the money is brought up every time someone mentions how angry they are. I’m just saying I think we need to move on because for me Oscar came really close to nailing the perfect five this year and that perfect five did not include The Dark Knight. As good as it was, it was beat. Also, I don’t want people telling me that I have to feel it was one of the top five of the year and if I don’t think that it was then I’m just biased because I didn’t enjoy it as much as everyone else. Trust me, I enjoyed the movie. I absolutely adored it and loved it from beginning to end, and might have been one of the few people to have had some grasping of the third act on the first and second viewing; however I feel it wasn’t the best or one of the top five of the year. For anyone wondering what I could possibly think deserved it over The Dark Knight-take all five of the nominees and then add Wall-E. Sorry to offend anyone with this, but I was just being offended by the whole idea that I should stop being biased against the film just because I didn’t appreciate it even though I did more than even the average joe who went to see it. Great movie, not top five of the year, and it’s going to be remembered (mostly like Titanic) twenty years from now for being one of the highest grossing films, people will forget everything else.
@ Paul Outlaw: of the eligible films I would rate these above “The Dark Knight:”
Synecdoche, New York
Gran Torino
WALL-E
Slumdog Millionaire
Waltz with Bashir
The Wrestler
The Reader
Revolutionary Road
I forgot. Those films that are above The Dark Knight for me:
Benjamin Button
The Reader
Revolutionary Road
Slumdog Millionaire
Wall-E
Milk
Frost/Nixon
How or why would there be a British bias against TDK? 80 percent of the people involved in the movie were Brits…the Nolans, Bale, Oldman, Caine, plus a lot of the tech crew.
Someone upthread mentioned an ‘Oscar IOU.’ Could it be possible, since everyone presumes there will be a third Nolan-directed Batman film, that the Academy could be saving up for a LOTR-esque shower of awards when the third one comes out?
First, does anyone really think that a voter looks at his/her ballot and asks “what should I choose so the show will get better ratings?” No one – except maybe the producer of the show. People are going to vote for what they think is best. Second, not every critically-acclaimed box office winner gets a best picture nomination. The Empire Strikes Back, a far superior film to TDK, made more money (when adjusted for inflation) and was probably better reviewed. Spider-Man 2 was slightly better reviewed (according to metacritic). It made $100M less, but at $400M, still no slouch. It was a great summer blockbuster; it just wasn’t Oscar fare. I made the argument before that if you put in another actor for the Joker, there would be absolutely no discussion of Picture or Director nominations. I just don’t think his performance elevates the film to one of the best of the year, in my opinion. He clearly deserves the Oscar, but there have been many Oscar-worthy performances in films that don’t get nominated for best picture.
@ Matt; Watch the film again. Compare the cinematography, the editing, the score, the story, and the direction with another film last year. There is not a better high caliber film.
Also, remember this; this film was made at 185 million dollars. Spiderman 2 – 200 million. Empire Strikes Back – (adjusted for inflation) probably 200 million dollars. Titanic – 200 million dollars. Last year’s Spiderman 3 – 300 million. Nolan earns the Director award just for that – for writing a film that didn’t need a lot of special effects to attract audiences.
I respectfully disagree – I think there were several better in looking at cinematography, editing, score, story and direction, but that’s ok. That’s what makes discussing movies fun. And don’t get me wrong. I really liked The Dark Knight. I just wouldn’t put it in my top 5.
Interesting argument on return on investment. Would love to see some actual data on Empire, but couldn’t find any. I’m not a big fan of going on box office, though, and I wouldn’t give a director nomination for best return on investment. Then, god forbid, Chris Columbus might have been nominated for Home Alone, Randal Kleiser might have been nominated for Grease, or George Lucas might have been nominated for The Phantom Menace – Yikes!
The problem with TDK snub is beyond the film itself. It’s how, once more, we can understand and interpret the Academy Awards mentality: the dramatic triumph above all things, of middlebrow vision about art. Academy taste is the epitome of middle taste for “serious, prestige films”.
Forget about TDK, people. The same Oscar voters who will never vote for real highbrow movies from directors as Manoel de Oliveira, Bela Tárr, Tsai Ming Liang, Andrei Tarkovski, etc, etc, since they maybe have a nervous breakdwon after seeing them (imagine if the saw the anti narrative works of Stan Brakhage, Michael Snow, etc), is the same who also will never open their minds to excellence in mainstream movies, in blockbuster stuff, with rare exceptions.
Forget about these films or directors themselves, forget about you despise for TDK. Of course there is bad and great movies in blockbuster ones, in middlebrow ones, or in the truly avant garde, experimental, intellectuall ones. Don’t you guys think that more movies like former nominees “Raiders of the Lost Ark” and “The Fugitive”, if great, bright, and inteligent in his option for entertainment that could have terrific ideas behind it, deserve to be recognized? And in a crazy utopia, that maybe someday something like Tarkovski’s Andrei Rublev or the Sacrifice could be nominated for such popular award – OK, in this case I’m being too ambitious and out of the real world – ?
The fact is the Academy Awards refuse to see anything like that. The paradise in earth to them is a factory of weekly Harvey Weinstein produced serious movies for a ten minutes discussion after, or during, the tea party. And boy this man could handle a Oscar campaign. Don’t know if he can carry campaign in other areas, like political races, but to the Oscars..
Even if “The Reader” was directed by Uwe Boll starring Pauly Shore in drag as Hannah, and Paris Hilton with short hair and also in drag, as Michael, I guess Harvey Weinstein and his campaign crew could make the film a Oscar nominated movie for BP.
“The paradise in earth to them is a factory of weekly Harvey Weinstein produced serious movies for a ten minutes discussion after, or during, the tea party”.
I’m not specifically saying that about “The Reader”, which I haven’t seen yet, but to former HW produced “things” such as “The Shipping News”, IMO a horrible and middlebrow movie.
No oscar noms for The Shipping News, but Harvey was responsible for all the Cider House Rules and Chocolat nominations – ugh! However, I’m probably in the minority for being totally fine with Shakespeare in Love “upsetting” the first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan – there’s no way any one would want to reward the rest of Saving Private Ryan, so I’m assuming they were upset the 1st 20 minutes didn’t win best picture.
I do like Tarkovsky (recently stumbled onto Stalker and loved it), I think Bela Tarr is horrendously overrated.
The biggest problem for me IS all the tech nominations. “We think that that sound, cinematography, editing, makeup and visual effects are aces. It really is one of the most beautiful films of the year. Oh and that Heath Ledger was miraculous as The Joker. But your directing was less than average, the script sucked ass and the movie as a whole doesn’t have anything on “The Reader”.”
It’s crap. The Academy can suck it.
And speaking of expectations… no noms for Let The Right One In, uh?
If the Academy snub Heath Ledger I will burn the kodak theatre down.
T.
The Academy can suck it.
Shades of Tina Fey’s Globe acceptance speech. I like it.
I am not reading each and every response to see if I am repeating myself.
If TDK had been included in the BP category I doubt that viewer ratings would have increased significantly. The film, afterall, received EIGHT nominations!
Would the mainstream-TDK lovers stick with the 3 hour+ telecast just to see if their beloved hero got the big prize? Ridiculous. Maybe if you are 8 you might. And clueless.
TDK could invariably sweep all of its categories.
Would that make you happy??
As others have pointed out, the Academy isn’t a group of people who get together and say “Let’s not nominate “The Dark Knight” for Best Picture”. I would bet that a lot of its members had it in their top five, and therefore did think it should be recognized as one of the top five movie/directing/writing achievements of the year. It’s just bad luck that not enough of them had it in their top two. Movies like “Frost/Nixon” and “The Reader” may not be excessively popular with the kind of demographic that posts in message boards on the internet, but they’re impeccably crafted psychological portraits that have a strong following of people who appreciate low-key, character-driven filmmaking (and who have actually seen them, which I’m pretty sure that a lot of the bashers haven’t). And yes, the latter very likely also had the benefit of the British vote (although Christopher Nolan is also British, and a lot of British members who didn’t vote for him probably know this).
Also, and I don’t know why people need to be reminded of this, the Academy wasn’t created to reflect public opinion, and commercial and critical success is beside the point. If they’re Out Of Touch With The Mainstream it’s because being “down with the people” isn’t what they aim for, or should. The Academy is an insider’s club, here to reward whatever its members think represents excellence in filmmaking, and nothing else. Let ABC and the producers worry about the ratings of the telecast – if the members of the Academy did, it would seriously trivialize what they stand for.
Having said all that, it would be a grave mistake if they gave anyone but Ledger the supporting actor Oscar this year. If any other nominee won in this category, not only would they probably feel more ashamed than happy about it, but I would be seriously concerned for their safety.
And I should add that “The Dark Knight” was one of my personal favorites of the year, too.
I won’t watch the Oscar ceremony. The AMPAS really shot itself this time.
Well no Nolan/The Dark Knight as bet director/pic, one of the most talked about films of 2008 (and 90% positivley)
No Kristin Scott Thomas and Sally Hawkins, two of the best acting performances of 2008
AND the nominated only films just released around christmas time. THIS they really have to change, it is preposterous. Maybe if TDK, Happy-Go-Lucky and I’ll y a longtemps que j’taime have been released on Dec. 25th the nomination list would be different.
It cannot be that movies praised the whole year (even by Academy members mind you) will be neglected just because of a recent short hype of a recently seen movie. Of course if I just recently saw The Reader or Benjamin Button I think more about that movies, have stronger feelings for them than for The Dark Knight I saw in August.
And shortly after watching those there come the ballots for voting. So I put the most recent films I can remember every detail on Top, the other ones I put second/third etc.
I bet many academy members already regret their votes. And right so they are.
Thumbs down, you get worse and worse every year.
“Also, and I don’t know why people need to be reminded of this, the Academy wasn’t created to reflect public opinion, and commercial and critical success is beside the point. If they’re Out Of Touch With The Mainstream it’s because being “down with the people” isn’t what they aim for, or should. The Academy is an insider’s club, here to reward whatever its members think represents excellence in filmmaking, and nothing else”
Okay, agree with you. But THEN please, they should stop telecasting their show, stop making this gigantic fuzz and hype with the red carpet (if it’s not for the public and just for their exclusive members) and damn they should stop whining why their ratings drop and drop every year. Then, only then you are absolutley right.
The Academy is greedy for public opinion, the academy is greedy for recognition and they live for the press. That’s showbuiss I guess, and so they just should shut up why none in the world cares for the Oscar anymore.
What a post, Sasha. Agreed.
Matt,
Good point. To match with my posts in 63# and 64#, I should used “Chocolate” or “Cider House Rules” as examples, instead of “Shipping”. It’s that I thought first of what I think it’s Harvey’s worst “middlebrow stuff”. And to me is “Shipping” where everything is awful, disguting, there is no minor redeem factors as some good perfomances, like Jude Dench in “Chocolat”. In fact, she was better in “Chronicles of Riddick” than in “Shipping”, which had one of most terrible collective results by a movie with such great actresses and actors. I can’t remember movies when Spacey, Moore, Dench, Blanchett, Glenn, Postlewaite, Ifhans, were so lame. But the fact that took zero noms at the Oscar is a redeem factor… to the Oscar.
We all knew all along that TDK wouldn’t be nominated. We only hoped that it would be when all the fucking critics told us that it will.
Please FANBOYS gather yourself. I dont think it would be fair if AMPAS would nominate TDK just because it’s popular.
>>> It’s been said before, but worth reminding: The two highest rated Oscar broadcasts of the past decade were the years Titanic and LotR:Return of the King won. <<<
The years that American Beauty and Shakespeare in Love won got higher ratings than LOTR.
LOTR did OK, but the ratings weren’t exceptional like Titanic’s. The years Gladiator and Million Dollar Baby won got very close to LOTR in ratings.
Chicago got the second lowest ratings to No Country for Old Men, and it grossed over $300 million.
The nominees have something to do with the ratings, but I think less than we tend to think.
F*ck mainstream taste. HOORAY art!!!
Please FANBOYS gather yourself. I dont think it would be fair if AMPAS would nominate TDK just because it’s popular.
Argh, I hate it when people say that. If you want me to shut about TDK you’d better stop with these accusations. Iron Man was popular too but do you see people freaking out over it not being included in the lineup? There are so many reasons why The Dark Knight should have been nominated – I’m not going to go over them again. That it’s popular is an important factor right here, right now.
The critics didn’t tell us that, blizzards14. The guilds told us that. It was nominated by the PGA, DGA, WGA and ACE, not to mention featuring in at least one category in every single guild in which it was eligible (ASC, ADG, CDG, CAS, VES) and is awaiting a nom from MPSE, which will no doubt happen.
And that’s not all…it is the highest-grossing film of the year by far, the second highest-grossing film of all time domestically, the fourth highest-grossing film of all time worldwide, a record holder for biggest ever opening weekend, #5 on the IMDb Top 250 and #2 on MCN’s Top Ten lists chart. Sasha explains this all above.
AMPAS nominate all their films because they’re popular – with the guilds, with critics, with audiences, with the Globes and with BAFTAs. Yes, they have their own agenda, but they were never realistically going to nominate, say, Hunger, Waltz with Bashir, The Class, Trouble the Water and Let the Right One In, all of which are among my very favorite films of the year, and many others’ favorites too. It’s a fucking popularity contest, through and through. The best film generally doesn’t win (I haven’t agreed with their choice since Schindler’s List), and often isn’t even nominated.
I am no fanboy, but blizzards14, maybe think a little more about what you’re saying before you say it.
“Okay, agree with you. But THEN please, they should stop telecasting their show, stop making this gigantic fuzz and hype with the red carpet (if it’s not for the public and just for their exclusive members) and damn they should stop whining why their ratings drop and drop every year.”
I see where you’re coming from (except the last part, as the Academy never whines about its ratings; it’s the press that reports on them), and I can fully understand why someone would be upset that their favorite hasn’t been recognized. I strongly root for certain movies and artists every year, and I’m always disappointed when they don’t make it to the nominations, or the win.
But the show is so popular because so many people care who wins, plain and simple. The telecast is very much advertised as a mainstream show, and is produced and directed for the audience at home (more so than the audience in the Kodak; the actors in particular are on duty that night, as the spotlights and cameras are on them and they have to be seen reacting to the jokes/tributes/wins/acceptance speeches), but the way I see it, it’s the Academy’s show, and people who aren’t in the Academy are lucky enough to have the privilege to watch it live on TV.
You can call it arrogant, too exclusive, elitist or whatever, but that’s the point. It’s recognition by the film industry for the film industry, and that’s why film fans, critics, journalists and makers take it so seriously. The big irony of anti-Oscar tirades is that the people who most aggressively tout the Academy’s worthlessness are the ones who seem to care the most about their mistakes. If its opinion really didn’t matter, and its tastes were really so bad across the board, then why is everyone getting their panties in a bunch over this particular oversight? If people decide not to watch the show, why do they feel such a strong need to come on the internet and state that? If the telecast was really so pointless, I would think that they would be happy to just not watch it and get on with their lives.
Seems like most of the people freaking out over TDK not getting a BP nomination are at AD. Its not like TDK wasn’t snubbed for BP and BD by both the GG and BAFTA.The continued whining over an Oscar BP nomination that will never happen is tiresome.
Maybe the Academy will prepare just in time some kind of a special-award, and present it to “The Dark Knight” in a noble gesture for being an important movie till the end of this century and to say “We are sorry!” to the TDK-supporters worldwide for being too old fashioned and blind to nominate it for “Best Picture”…
Jim Carrey should present it.
Sasha said
“Please take your business elsewhere if you don’t like the content.”
I think with all this TDK story you’ve been treating the readers that don’t agree with you in a quite disrespectful way…
^When Heath Ledger wins, I can almost guarantee that the Academy’s PR press release will point out “This is the first major award ever given to a super hero film”
Wall-e said…
“I’ve enjoyed reading AD/Oscarwatch for the last five or six years. However, this has been the worst awards season for this site and I’m not sure that it is still enjoyable to read. Every year there are worthy movies that are snubbed by the academy, but I have never seen this level of grovelling for any of those other films. Whether or not TDK is objectively “easily within the top 5 films of the year,” the amount of attention given to it on this site is not warranted and decreases the value of the site. This is not a place for awards watchers to go, it is a place for TDK fans to go. Although I consider myself to be a fan of TDK, I do not think that it should have been nominated for best picture or director. Because of that position, I no longer feel that I can count myself as a member of this new “awards daily community.”
On this site, everything comes back to TDK. It would be nice if that wasn’t always true.”
Totally agree…it is sad….
I think with all this TDK story you’ve been treating the readers that don’t agree with you in a quite disrespectful way…
I don’t think it’s disrespectful. I’m saying – this is a blog with people who write about things they think are important. If you don’t agree with it, you are free to move on. I don’t know what else to say – you can’t please everyone and honestly I’ve been complaints exactly like this for the last ten years. The only thing that has changed in the movie in question. I still think this is the most interesting, vital, funny group of readers on any Oscar site. And you have every right to complain about the content – just don’t expect me or anyone to then change what we write to please you. That would be kind of boring.
Seems like most of the people freaking out over TDK not getting a BP nomination are at AD. Its not like TDK wasn’t snubbed for BP and BD by both the GG and BAFTA.The continued whining over an Oscar BP nomination that will never happen is tiresome.
Again, fans of the film have a place to come to whine and complain. And there is much talk about it elsewhere. There are, like it or not, a lot of readers of this site that do care about the film’s snub and are angry at AMPAS for its wide variety of mistakes over the years. Talking about it is a healthy thing to do. I don’t see the point in adding insult to injury by judging them (us) for those valid feelings.
“If people decide not to watch the show, why do they feel such a strong need to come on the internet and state that?”
True. I give in. Oscars are worthless no need to state that any longer here. I none the less hope the ratings for the Oscar show will drop, I am sure the AMPAS DO care about quotes. It’s all about the money in this greedy world
Bye
@ I Love AMPAS:
Last time I checked, this is Sasha’s site. You don’t like the content, go bitch about the TDK attention on some other site that is talking about it.
The Dark Knight was in my top five. I would give a nom to Man on Wire or Rachel Getting Married ahead of it. But in the perfect nomination world, it would be there for me.
While individuals might personally find it overrated, it’s impossible to deny that it was both a huge and critical success. Calling its Oscar supporters “fanboys” is to ignore the massive critical support for the film.
Had it been snubbed last year in favor of No Country, Zodiac, Jesse James, Once, and There Will Be Blood, I wouldn’t be that upset. Instead, it’s been snubbed in favor of movies of which only one might make my top 15. Might.
Does anyone think Frost/Nixon is going to be remembered as a great film? Is it touching a chord right now, even? Not judging by the box office. I personally don’t like Slumdog, but have to admit that others do.
AMPAS has shot itself in the foot in favor of movies that aren’t deserving.
It’s strange, too, because over the past couple of years, the Academy has done a far better job of nominating the best films of the year.
Oh, and about the “TDK has a bad third act” line of criticism ….
Did anyone bother to watch the first two hours? When was the last time that a film has sustained that level of intensity for that long? What, do we just chuck those two hours out the window because the last half-hour is a little sloppy?
Of course the third act feels a little like a letdown. It isn’t perfectly smooth. But, but , but ….. it pays off with a brilliant ending, in which the hero chooses to be hated by the society he defends in order to protect that society. It’s a complex and interesting ending, and one extremely rovocative to the world in which we live.
“And you have every right to complain about the content – just don’t expect me or anyone to then change what we write to please you. That would be kind of boring.”
I mean this respectfully (you are my favorite blogger) but maybe you should take your own advice, and not expect the Academy to change who they vote for to please you. I LIKED the Dark Knight. I thought it was pretty darn good. I didn’t LOVE the Dark Knight. The third act (in my mind) kept it from being FAR from one of the five best films of the year…..not because it was confusing (it wasnt) but because I found it trite, cliche, and totally not subtle. I loved having the guts to kill off Maggie G., I loved the blurring of good/evil…..but the two faces one the Mayor? Sorry, I’m just not buying. Meanwhile, IF the DK deserved a nod it would be (in my opinion) over Frost/Nixon (WAY overrated) or Curious Case of Benjamin Button (slightly overrated), not because of The Reader (one of the 2 or 3 best films of the year IMHO). And where are all the people crying a river over Rachel Getting Married? Or last year’s, I’m Not There? Great films always get left out, why is it so bad just because it was “popular”? Lots of horrible films have been “popular.” Lots of unpopular, horrible films have won (i.e. Crash). But getting upset because one (quite good) action flick got halfway ignored (it still got alot of noms) seems shortsighted.
Look, there are already way too many “choice” Awards Shows out there. The critics have theirs and the “people” have theirs. The producers, the directors, the animators, the cinimatographers and the editors have theirs. So, let the Academy have theirs. It doesn’t trivialize it, or make it meaningless. Giving awards out to specific nominees just to please a television audience is absurd. The Academy gave out Awards long before there was television, and to even think about using that as a criterion for making a selection is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard.
So Dark Knight didn’t make the cut for Best Picture. You know why? It wasn’t deserving. Making a crapload of money because Heath Ledger died gave it twice the boxoffice it would have normally received. The film was pretty much a piece of crapola, poorly directed and poorly edited. The only saving grace to the film was Heath Ledger’s performance, and then they even blew that chance to immortalize it, by not killing off the character. So, the Joker’s going to come back again? What a slap in the face to Heath. Who on earth would even want to do the Joker after Heath’s brilliant take on it?
The movie was flawed with sloppy editing, a script that made little to no sense, no likeable characters in the entire movie (including Batman, who just walks away from his girlfriend as if she doesn’t exist), zippo character development, lousy continuity, and the stigma of being a comic book. Everyone’s raving over how it overcomes that stigma by being a “masterpiece”. Well, bull-dingy! Get over the Heath mania and see the movie for what it is– a lot of noise and special effects with one good performance. I had it when a movie doesn’t have a single character in it that you can root for.
Personally, I think the raves over Slumdog are a bit over the top, also. It lost me when the kid started getting tortured and electrocuted for guessing the answers correctly on a television quiz show. Come on, people. If you can’t ante up the prize, then don’t wave the money out there! Nonetheless, Slumdog is infinitely a better film than the TDK, and we all know the only reason The Reader is in competition is because Sidney Pollack and Anthony Minghella died.
Well, if they can reward Heath post-humously, why not Sidney and Anthony too?
As for ratings, who cares? People aren’t going to watch it because the highest grossing fluff film of the year only got 8 Oscar nominations, instead of 10 or 13? Actually, 8 Oscar nominations is probably 5 too many for the TDK, so cut the Academy a bit of slack. Sometimes they do show a bit of generosity.
And as for Wall-E, that was another “yawn” movie that is lucky to be there on February 22. Half of the movie was silent and it gets a best screenwriting nomination? And all these critics screaming that it should have been nominated for “Best Picture”. The Academy responded to that by giving animated films their own category. ‘Nuff said. Get over it.
And stop telling the Academy how to act, and how to think. If you don’t like it, form your own little f*?#ing Awards Show–like we need another one, and have your peace.
Guys, I think I’m done. My one reason for getting into the Oscar race has officially had its hopes vanquished. I’ve never done this in year’s past, but to be honest, when I saw TDK and how much it moved me, after it was done I thought to myself “This can’t be it. There has to be some sort of recognition for this.” So I joined the Oscarwatch race. I learned about movies I otherwise would have never known about, watched a few excellent Oscar-bait movies I had missed in years past, and in short I was cinematically enlightened. But my focus was all about TDK. I slowly watched it climb prediction charts over the course of 6 months, with my excitement climaxing with the PGA, DGA, and WGA nods.
And then that morning came when I checked my iPod touch in the middle of class at 8:45 am after a quiz. Six months, all for nothing. Nothing. I always assumed Heath Ledger was a given, so the true feat and accomplishment was Picture, Director, and Screenplay. 11 nods it would have been, more than Slumdog. No. My suspicions about AMPAS from previous year telecasts of Oscars were confirmed: they no longer apply to me, the common man.
@ RJGinCA:
TDK made twice as much due to Ledger’s death? Are you serious?
Because Heath Ledger has $265 million box office clout on his own, right? Because he has a track record of carrying box office tentpoles on his back, right? I mean, when it was announced Heath Ledger got the Joker role, we all thought, “Well, now that they have Ledger on board, it’s a cinch for a $500 million+ box office,” right?
Please. People were geeked to see TDK WAY in advance due in some part to the terrific viral marketing campaign on the internet, some due to simply being Nolan/Batman fans, and some because the trailers just made it look damn good. Did Ledger’s death add some box office? Sure- but not a significant number. The people who saw it because of Ledger’s death were most likely laypeople who ordinarily would not have seen TDK, but even that is hard to measure because the film premiered to such great reviews that I am inclined to believe a number of laypeople saw it because Batman Begins was very good and it simply was getting a great deal of press.
Bottom line: When something is popular and successful, people get green with envy. They will go out of their way to knock that something down- even if it amounts to absurd nit-picking (“confusing third act”), distortions/excuses (“it wouldn’t have been as big had Ledger not died) and the patently absurd (“it is a comic book/popcorn movie; therefore it doesn’t deserve Academy consideration).
AMPAS, BAFTA and HFPA are all wrong and you’re right. Something funny here.
Obviously, TDK had the kind of run that merited a surefire BP (and BD) nod. But it was not going to win. Not with Slumdog in the race. So we should still be angry, annoyed, disheartened, and all, but perhaps take it with a grain of salt. At the end of the day, the rightful or at least predicted-consensus winner is chosen in most categories (except for foreign film sometimes, and, of late, Best Song, where Beyonce and The Boss were totally ripped off…except you know Jaiho would be taking it anyway).
But I have to add that what bothers me most about the TDK snub is that, had the film been nominated, it would no longer been seen by the critics as the “sympathy vote” for Heath Ledger. The naysayers would start to think he must have really deserved it for the performance if the film was good enough to be nominated for Best Picture.
Voice of Dorothy Gale:
“AMPAS and BAFTA and HFPA, oh my!”
We should have seen this coming. AMPAS are more in tune with BAFTA and HFPA.
No one can accuse the Britsh of blindly supporting the British. They throw their support behind one or two homegrown products and ignore the rest. I truly think that British memebers of AMPAS gave little or no support to DK. Even, boxoffice wise, DK was never as big in the rest of world as in North America. Mamma Mia! was bigger in the UK.
BAFTA ignored Sally Hawkins and ditto for AMPAS
BAFTA ignored Julie Christie and AMPAS did the same.
I would like to know what proportion of AMPAS is British.
Batman Begins, also directed by Christopher Nolan, grossed $205 million domestically. So, why would anyone think that The Dark Knight would automatically gross over $500 million??
People wanted to see Heath Ledger’s final performance, which was brilliant, by the way……but one good performance does not a great movie make. It’s analagous to rubber-neckers stopping on the freeway to get a closer look at the accident. It’s just human nature.
Oh, and getting 8 Oscar Nominations is not what I call a “snub”. Now Clint Eastwood and “Gran Torino” not receiving any Oscar nominations. That’s what I call a snub.
Post #90 had it right….the real problem isn’t that TDK was snubbed, it’s that it was snubbed in favour of good-but-not-great films like Milk and Frost/Nixon and outright mediocrities like Button (I haven’t seen Reader, so I can’t judge). If Dark Knight had been runner-up to five amazing films, I don’t think anyone would’ve minded. TDK’s “fanboys” already knew that Slumdog was going to win the big prize anyway, but at least a nomination for the picture and for Nolan would’ve been great.
I loved The Dark Knight, so thanks for this post (and all the other ones on the subject).
I wasn’t surprised that TDK got left out, though, considering how many wrong decisions the academy has made in the past. A lot of people have stopped caring about the Oscars for a while, as shown by the show’s ratings. I’m moving on (probably to the couch to watch TDK on DVD)…
I’m not sure where this “2nd best reviewed film of the year” business came from, but according to rottentomatoes.com, who compiles such things, “The Dark Knight” is the 22nd best-reviewed film of the year. So those that have written endlessly about the “snub” of the movie, in order to give those other non-nominated, better movies their due, have about 20 more whiney columns to write.
@ Katie:
“And where are all the people crying a river over Rachel Getting Married? Or last year’s, I’m Not There?”
Right here. As anyone who frequents the site knows, I bring the film up whenever I can. Thanks for the assist.
@ RJGinCA:
“Now Clint Eastwood and “Gran Torino” not receiving any Oscar nominations. That’s what I call a snub.”
I call it common sense.
@RJGinCA #93 – right on the money!
@RJGinCA #101 re: Gran Torino – not so much
Could someone please explain what they mean by “a confusing third act” or “the script doesn’t make sense.” I’d like to actually read what you mean.
@ K. Bowen -
Agreed. I don’t know what all this “confusing third act” talk is about. Rushed, perhaps. But confusing? For those of you who claim to be art-house snobs, it would seem you’d be able to figure out the art of storytelling. Jeez Louise.
Sasha – Thanks for your thoughts on TDK. Much appreciated, and right on the money.
I”m just one person but I didn’t like The Dark Knight. Yes, it was confusing. Yes, it was needlessly sadistic. Yes, any actor who played The Joker would have got the nomination. My opinion, but I could be wrong. Why are so many people on these sites so absolutely sure they are right? Just because you love a movie doesn’t mean it’s the best movie, does it? And I realize the reverse may also be true.
Rob – The Joker was played before by another actor, with no nomination. So, I’m not quite sure I get your reasoning. Again, what was so confusing? I don’t get it.
Listen up, bottom line, TDK tuned the competition this year. It’s one of the best films ever. Not my opinion, that my friends, is fact. Half a billion dollars of ticket sales trumps all elitist movie-lover opinion so save it.
The sweet revenge we will all have is that whomever does win Best Picture this year will have that nagging feeling in the back of their minds that they really didn’t deserve it. TDK blowback has become so fierce in some circles that the night is no longer about the other films. The story of the 2009 Oscars IS the TDK snub. Imagine this, Danny Boyle is getting ready to answer questions about his Best Picture victory and the 2nd question asked is, “what do you think about TDK being snubbed from Oscar contention this year?” Oh that will be a sweet moment. No one will ever care who win’s year, they will only remember that TDK was snubbed and consequently talk about why it was.
Not to mention the huge loss in Ad revenue. Hit ‘em where it hurts, right in the pocketbook. This will be one of the lowest rated Academy awards in years. When you give the big FU to $500 billion in ticket sales, expect a big FU right back at ya. I mean how STUPID are these people? Flipping the finger at the very people who pay their paychecks? What a huge monumental Fck Up. I hope they all get what they deserve. A big dud of an awards night and a terrible guilt-ridden conscience as they sit and accept awards from the mutual admiration society.
Gran Torino is the best film of the year and Clint Eastwood’s performance is the best performance of the year.
Let’s be honest. The high profit from the film was partially generated by the tragic death of Heath Ledger. It’s not pretty, but it’s true. That doesn’t change the film’s quality (it’s a good film). But don’t go dragging out the “$” to tell me what I have to think about a film and its praise. Just because a film makes money, doesn’t mean it has to be good. That’s just a bullshit argument, I’m sorry. I saw everyone run off to the theatres the day The Dark Knight was released, and all everyone talked about BEFORE and AFTER was Heath Ledger. He was a great actor, and he deserves his nomination. But the gross does not justify whining over this film not being praised like a demi-god.
Was TDK a good film? Hell yeah it was! Was it so good that I feel it should bump the smaller budget films in nominations? No. Just no. My main concern was that TDK got the Supporting Actor and Sound nomination – if they’d not been nominated there, now THAT would be a snub. All further nominations that TDK missed out on, go to OTHER well-deserving films. Let it go. It’s not like TDK got no nominations, or lost nominations to Meet The Spartans. For crying out loud.
As for Brian calling people “elitist” if they don’t think TDK is the best thing since sliced bread… too easy, mate. Cheap shot. Some people just don’t like being told what is good. Telling other people what they should and shouldn’t like, and to which extent, now that is snobby.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. The Dark Knight was so much more fun before people started telling me I had to believe it was the best film of the year. I’m not going to cry over a couple less nominations just because you name the gross and tell me I’m wrong.
And you know what, most of all I don’t like being told that if I like a film, I have to think it deserves every Oscar there is to win. It just doesn’t. I’m not a Dark Knight hater… but I refuse to get worked up over the fact that it’s not nominated in every category. And by all your extreme fanatism you’ve pushed people who feel that way, into a corner where we almost need to attack TDK because the only other option is getting all teary-eyed and feet-stomping like you.
The lack of level-headedness is hilarious. The Dark Knight was snubbed. It was ridiculous, and we all know it. Can we get back to having some fun now?
And, no, it’s not just about the money it made, as many people have pointed out over many days. As Sasha suggested earlier, it’s not as if we’re arguing that Iron Man was snubbed because it made so much money, and was a popular film. It’s about more than the money, clearly. It should’ve been recognized in the more prestigious categories (notwithstanding Ledger’s nom). And now, The Reader is instead. If anything has to do with money, it’s Harvey Weisntein paying for its nominations.
@ J: ” If anything has to do with money, it’s Harvey Weisntein paying for its nominations.”
Sure, too sad Warner Bros. didn´t campaign for “TDK”…
It isn’t just about ‘the Dark Knight’ not getting deserved recognition, its more about the Academy out of touch attitude with the art of cinema and the general public’s taste.
Any award ceremony that doesn’t have ‘The Dark Knight’ nominated for Best Picture and Christopher Nolan for Best Picture is a slap in the face. And to replace them with the mediocre ‘Reader’ and Stephen Daldry just shows political favoritism.
Other snubs include Winslet in the far superior ‘Road’ as well as Sally Hawkins, Kristen Scott Thomas, and ‘Gran Torino’ for something!
Also, there stupid rules that prevented ‘Gomorrah, ‘Let the Right One In,’ and Bruce Springsteen from being nominated is a joke.
The more I go down the list, the more these awards seem more irrelevant. Hard to believe this is the same Academy that nominated ‘The Towering Inferno,’ ‘Beauty and the Beast,’ and ‘The Sixth Sense’ for Best Picture. I still haven’t decided if I’m going to watch the telecast yet.
Julianna
You are my hero. 113 on Dark Knight. Very well said.
@ Julianna:
I think the frustration with the Academy is not because TDK will not be named Best Picture, it is that it was not recognized as one of the top 5 in the BP race when it seemingly had the chops to be there (or at the very least, more than The Reader).
I had zero expectation for a best picture win for TDK but fully expected, due to critical, audience, and guild support, that it would get the nomination. From my end, it has nothing to do with box office receipts. Artistically, it belonged as much if not more so than at least 2/5ths of the nominees (I’m looking at you Frost/Nixon and The Reader).
I am certainly not telling you that you have to like TDK. I am telling you that TDK deserved to be there in the final 5 and there is quite a bit of support for that argument.
Julianna, calling people who do not like TDK elitist is a cheap shot, as a matter of fact, it’s a lay-up, a slam dunk even. The arguement about the money I think has merit. More people made the choice to leave the house, get off the couch plunk down 10 bucs to see TDK than any other movie this year. Not just once, but twice, three times. The first time you go see it, it’s because you heard the hype, the 2nd and third time you go see it, it’s because the movie rocked. I believe we are all clear on that arguement now.
Secondly, I don’t like to be told what is good and what isn’t either. That’s why I went out and saw all of the Oscar contending movies except for Milk. I’ll take people’s word for it that it’s a good movie. Sean Penn is a brilliant actor, it’s a good story, I’m sure it deserves the nomination. I trust other’s judgement on that one. However, after seeing Button, The Reader, and Slumdog, I’m completely at a loss as to why Button and Slumdog have been nominated, and I don’t like being told that Button and Slumdog were nominated, and that is what is so frustrating. When a race is so tight and subjective measures aren’t good enough to separate the good from the truly outstanding, I believe it’s time to resort to objective measures such as box office receipts. I think we can all safely say that TDK was surely in the conversation for best picture, but just barely lost out. If it barely lost out to Button or Slumdog or Frost/Nixon, then you are telling me that your subjective measures are that much more of a validated assessment than the general public, hence, elitist. TDK was in the running without the box office receipts. TDK was in the running if Heath Ledger had survived. If there was anything that should’ve been used as the first tie-breaker, I think it’s fair to use box office. The sad part is, TDK didn’t need the box office to be in the top 5. The box office I believe actually bumped TDK out of contention. The film that bugs me the most, much like TDK seems to bug others, is Slumdog. It was a wholly average movie. Rev Road, The Reader, Wall-E, TDK all slam this movie so far out of contention it’s laughable. If anyone felt like they HAD to nominate a film it was the academy feeling like they HAD to nominate slumbore because of all the bewildering accolades it had received so far. When I ask people who have seen Slumdog what they thought of the movie, they say, oh, yeah, pretty good flick. Not a one was struck by this movie in the way the critics have been. Rev Road was riveting, The Reader was too, Wall-E was an utter joy, TDK was simply a masterpiece, and Slumdog, well, let me see, oh yeah, I saw that, pretty good flick.
The arguement is sound. TDK was snubbed. I’m passionate about it. I love the movies. This year, the academy royally screwed up. There’s really no two ways about it.
Leave a reply
All comments should respect the Awards Daily House Rules. If you think a particular comment breaks these rules then please let us know, quoting the comment in question.