“Fame you’ll be famous, as famous as can be, with everyone watching you win on TV, Except when they don’t because sometimes they won’t.”
― Dr. Seuss, Oh, the Places You’ll Go!
The stealthy Oscar campaign behind this year’s stunning victory lap by Ben Affleck and his Argo-movie-that-could are the same folks, not too surprisingly, who were behind Crash’s victory against Brokeback. This is a stealthy crew who don’t want you to know what they see coming a mile away.
When the race first began, it felt wide open. Many of us believed that whatever won the Producers Guild would change the dynamics of the race. Why, because that would be ten films with a preferential ballot. Moreover, with a wide open race no one really knew what the consensus vote would be. We knew critics liked Zero Dark Thirty, and when it faltered, Argo — but the Academy, not so much. Toronto likes Silver Linings and the Academy agreed. Critics didn’t award Lincoln, but the Academy did, with 12 nominations.
Finding director now will be tricky. I don’t know what voters will do but I have my doubts they will reward Spielberg. If they were going to reward him for the high achievement that is Lincoln it would have shown up at the DGA. As it is, I think I’ll have to bet that if Argo wins BP, Michael Haneke will win Director, Actress and Screenplay for Amour.
My hope would be that people, whereupon seeing Argo becoming winner-takes-all would back way off of their Lincoln hate but alas, such is not the case. Hollywood-Elsewhere’s Jeff Wells, who thought Life of Pi would never go anywhere, that Beasts of the Southern Wild was too “ugly” for Oscar voters and that Argo was too ordinary or mediocre for Oscar voters has now dropped all of that just to continue (what he thinks is) beating Lincoln to the ground. It is the most bizarre thing. His continual need to embarrass anyone who was predicting Lincoln — and come to that, many of the commenters here who feel that same need, act as though joining the general consensus and choosing Argo is some heroic feat. Picking the predictable is anything but heroic — if anything, you get to hide behind the mob and avoid humiliation.
There are so many great movies brought to the public’s attention this year. Beasts of the Southern Wild and Amour, particularly, and to see those directors celebrated by the Academy is one of the coolest things I’ve seen the Academy do in 14 years. They broke with the consensus. They rebelled. They said: for once we’re not going to do what everyone else says we have to do. For once, you can’t herd our choices into a pen — we decide. But the combination of Argo being the choice of voters and Ben Affleck being a popular celebrity, made the vast amount of voters in the industry decide to override the directors. If they override them at the Oscars it will be the first time in history such a thing has happened. When Driving Miss Daisy won, its director wasn’t nominated for a Globe, a DGA or an Oscar. Ben Affleck winning the DGA, then not getting an Oscar nomination but winning Best Picture? Never happened.
But I’m not going to bet against the Crash team to push this baby over the edge. Overriding the directors branch should be an easy enough feat. What that will mean is that we will no longer look to the directors to lead the race. We will no longer consider the directors branch to be powerful and, in fact, any film could win theoretically, whether the directors choose it or not. Funny, that.
Watching the rise and fall of Zero Dark Thirty no doubt contributed, at least in part, to Argo’s success. I think the critics chose Argo because they had to abandon Zero Dark Thirty, but the industry has chosen Argo because it’s the only one they can all agree upon is best. It’s a perfect storm, if you will. The Globes and BFCA voters had their ballots in before Oscar nominations but Argo’s win immediately following Affleck’s “snub” was like fire on gasoline.
Here is a rough timeline of Zero Dark Thirty’s rise and fall:
Timeline:
- September 16, 2012 – Argo loses to Silver linings Playbook at TIFF
- December 3, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty wins New York Film Critics award for Picture, Director
- December 5, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty wins National Board of Review Picture, Director, Actress
- December 9, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty wins Boston Film Critics Picture, Director, Screenplay
- December 10, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty wins Washington DC area film critics Picture, Director, Actress
- December 10, 2012 – David Edelstein writes in his review that “Dick Cheney would have loved Zero Dark Thirty”
- December 10, 2012 – Glenn Greenwald’s headline “Zero Dark Thirty: new torture-glorifying film wins raves“
- December 10, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty torture debate
- December 11, 2012 – CNN: Did torture really lead to Bin Laden?
- December 12, 2012 – MSNBC Does Zero Dark Thirty promote torture?
- December 12, 2012 – New York Times – torture scenes open reopen debate
- December 12, 2012 – Hollywood Reporter – Zero Dark Thirty, how to sell it
- December 13, 2012 – Argo wins San Diego Film Critics Picture, Director, Screenplay
- December 16, 2012 – Argo wins Southeastern Film Critics Association
- December 17, 2012 – Zero Dark Thirty wins Chicago Film Critics Picture, Director, Screenplay, Actress, Editing
- December 18, 2012 – Argo wins the Florida Film Critics Picture, Director, Screenplay
- In a December 19 letter to the chairman and CEO of Sony Pictures Entertainment, which produced the film, three senators alleged it was “grossly inaccurate and misleading in its suggestion that torture resulted in information that led to the location” of bin Laden.
- Friday, January 4th, 2013 – Naomi Wolf calls Kathryn Bigelow Leni Reifenstahl
- Critics Choice ballots due — January 8, 2013
- Oscar nominations — January 10, 2013 – Kathryn Bigelow, Ben Affleck and Tom Hooper not nominated for director.
- Critics Choice Awards — January 10, 2013 – Argo wins Picture, Director
- Golden Globe Awards — January 13, 2013 – Argo wins Picture, Director
- January 13, 2013 — Ed Asner and Martin Sheen send letter to Academy voters to boycott Zero Dark Thirty
- January 15, 2013 – Kathryn Bigelow writes an op-ed defending Zero Dark Thirty
- PGA/WGA/SAG ballot deadline — January 25, 2013
- PGA Awards — January 26, 2013 – Argo wins
- SAG Awards — January 27, 2013 – Argo wins ensemble
- January 28, 2013 – Michael Moore launches defense of Zero Dark Thirty
- January 30, 2013 — Martin Sheen retracts statements against Zero Dark Thirty
- DGA Awards — February 2, 2013 – Argo wins DGA
- February 8, 2013 – Oscar ballots are sent out.
That is one hell of a rise and fall. I will always believe that Argo benefited from it – after all, Argo is the anti-Zero Dark Thirty. It’s a movie about the nice guy CIA doing nice guy things, funny thing, enlisting Hollywood with a thumping Led Zepplin vibe. Men do all the work, women are to be protected and rescued. Our enemies are chasing us but we get away, hero saves the day. Neither Maya nor Tony Mendez ever got to take credit but by the end of Zero Dark Thirty you don’t want to see Maya collect awards but you do want to see Affleck as Mendez. Everything Zero Dark Thirty is, Argo isn’t. Argo never pretended to be anything more than a good old fashioned crowdpleaser. And Kathryn Bigelow has already won, Ben Affleck hasn’t. So give him the Oscar — everybody wins.
The torture debate was still worth having. Zero Dark Thirty is still the better film. And so it goes. Awards aren’t everything. What was it Luis Bunuel said about the Oscar? “Nothing would disgust me more morally than winning an Oscar.”
At the end of the day I will admit that it’s sad to see Lincoln get the shaft. But what can you do? You can’t make people “like” a movie they don’t. And if you are looking for those kinds of accolades you mostly have to make films that don’t push out towards the edges but skate right down the middle. Audiences want to be soothed and entertained nowadays — hell, look at the previous two Oscar winners: The Artist, The King’s Speech and now, Argo — these are films that do not challenge us in any way. They are solid, good films that no one hates.
But you can still write about the Oscar race without focusing on the end result. That Beasts of the Southern Wild was rewarded for making a film with $1.8 million is incredible. That Amour, a film in French, got Picture, Director, Screenplay and Actress is incredible. That a live action short called Inocente introduces us to a vibrant artist who turned her invisible identity as an immigrant and her abusive past into art which bursts forth from her because it has nowhere else to go is incredible. That we now know who Rodriguez is thanks to Searching For Sugarman is incredible.
I understand that as I write this, I am hopefully offering some comfort for people who feel as I do, kind of weirded out by how voters turned their noses up at Spielberg’s beautifully written ode to Abe Lincoln that has really captured the public’s attention ($170 million) and their heart. But the Oscars have stopped being about the American public a long time ago. And I understand that many readers and those who follow me on Twitter want to see more drama so that they can pile on the hate. Juicily. But sorry, we’re all out of that.
Despite the way it’s all turning out it has been a great year for awards, where the rewards are woven delicately through the familiar strains of how the Oscars usually go. We must never forget we are here to celebrate films, not necessarily to only care about who wins the horse race. At least, that’s my hope. This is why I keep reminding myself because I know how easy it is to forget how little all of it really means.
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For all the people dissing Sasha for supporting Lincoln- she could care less if you don’t support it for a Best Picture winner, but she does get ticked off if you blatantly attack her for the hell of being a troll. Plenty of people have given balanced arguments discussing why Lincoln could end up losing Oscar night to Argo- and Sasha has not done anything but give her opinion back in adult mature fashion. But for the idiots who just say “it’s boring, fuck you!” – yeah you’ll get what’s coming to you. I have the same issue with my JasonMovieGuy site with bloggers constantly dissing me for the sake of being an ass. They get deleted- and if Sasha wants to delete you, she can do just that. It’s her turf- been her turf for 14 years. She really ought to change her slogan to “Get off my Lawn!” Rock on Sasha, the haters can all take a back seat on the Argo bus.
Argo is not only missing the crucial Best Director nomination, it does not have a cinematography nod either. In the last five years all the BP winners had the cinematography nomination.
“Zero Dark Thirty is still the better film” … nope, that’s not true. Argo is better, Lincoln is better, Django Unchained is better, Silver Linings Playbook is better … my opinion, yes.
However, I really dislike foul language on a site like this and calling Sasha (or anyone else for that matter) really offensive names does not do anyone good.
I love films, I’m a “subscriber” to awardsdaily posts and I love this site … I reckon Sasha, Ryan and others have different opinion than me on many occasions but I love the ability to come here and debate about it. Who am I anyway? Just a film enthusiast from Iceland, but one who has a very valid opinion like most of the comments and commenters here 🙂
Film love and respect 🙂
I still think the Best Picture race is open.
In saying that, Argo is just such a logical and crowdpleasing winner. It ticks all the boxes. It may not necessarily be the best one, but if it wins on oscar night, barely anyone will complain. It’s not like we have to sit through another night where Crash, The Artist or Slumdog takes the prize. Argo will be the best winner since No Country.
I really dont mind who wins this year. Last year it was The Artist, with films like The Descendents offering the most competition (Ugh!). I generally like all the contenders this year, so no issue with the overall winner. I just feel that Argo is the safest, most popular choice, and also fits in well with the last several winners.
I saw Argo 4 months ago, and just left the film with an overwhelming feeling that this was the Best Picture winner. Sometimes you just know, regardless of buzz.
I appreciate that the site takes such a strong stance on films in the running for Oscars, but then I have the comfort of being in agreement most years (Hugo, The Social Network, Brokeback) so it makes it enjoyable. Although enjoyable is not the right word to use when looking back on the Brokeback year. Nothing will ever hurt as much. At least I hope it wont.
Sasha, as a longtime follower of this website, I’m saddened to see how relentlessly defeatist your attitude has become whenever your favorite doesn’t turn out to be the Academy’s favorite. The occasional opinion piece would be okay, but it seems like at least once a week, there’s a long article here on how Lincoln is being unfairly overlooked by the precursor awards and it just doesn’t make good reading, nor does it provide any insight into the season.
I agree that Lincoln is great – it just so happens that this is a year of many great films, among them, yes, Argo, so you seem to take these things to heart way too much. After all, isn’t it nearly every year that one’s personal favorite – the one that is so obviously superior to the others in one’s subjective opinion – does not win anything? It happens all the time, as you well know. Despite what you keep saying, it does seem sometimes by the way you write that you do look to the awards season to validate your tastes. Try to not mind, as your website’s motto says. You win some, you lose some. The last time I saw my favorite film of the year go on to win Best Picture was Lord of the Rings, and before that American Beauty. That has been a while. Last year, my three favorites didn’t even get nominated (Melancholia, Drive, A Separation). But this year, my favorite, which is Argo, now seems poised to take it, which is nice but rare. And I’m frankly still not convinced that will happen, so just wait and see what happens on Feb 24… Lincoln may still win. And if not, maybe your favorite next year will win.
It’s a game, as you like to point out. And there’s no accounting for taste. I for one would appreciate it if the site could go back to reporting/blogging about the awards race without these overly partial articles which create and reinforce the very David vs. Goliath narratives you bemoan.
It’s a game, as you like to point out. And there’s no accounting for taste. I for one would appreciate it if the site could go back to reporting/blogging about the awards race without these overly partial articles which create and reinforce the very David vs. Goliath narratives you bemoan.
Dear Matt — I appreciate your thoughts. I don’t really tailor Awards Daily to any one person’s needs, however. Since it is my site, run and owned by me I choose to create content that intrigues me. I have never just reported on the race. I take a specific side. I have done this in order to distinguish myself from the plethora of other Oscar sites out there. I think of myself as someone like Rachel Maddow not someone like Pete Hammond of Dave Karger. I take a point of view, I point out injustices, I try to give an overreaching picture of how I see the Oscar race. I have been doing it now for almost 15 years and to tell you the truth I’m just about ready to pack it in. Although you may wish Awards Daily was a different site it is probably not going to change. I can suggest many other blogs out there and sites you can read — for instance, read Anne Thompson over at Indiewire. Kris Tapley at In Contention. Melena Ryzick at the NY Times and Tom O’Neil at Gold Derby. These are all Oscar bloggers who do not advocate, do not take a specific side. I strongly recommend you shift your attention away from Awards Daily and over to one of those sites. Waiting for me to morph into one of those? Ain’t going to happen any time soon.
We just gotta keep reminding ourselves that Argo is actually a quality movie and be happy about that. There is no gross injustice here, a good quality film that’s entertaining from start to finish, tells a powerful and true story in an entertaining way, is on its way to win the Best Picture (most likely).
We just gotta keep reminding ourselves that Argo is actually a quality movie and be happy about that. There is no gross injustice here, a good quality film that’s entertaining from start to finish, tells a powerful and true story in an entertaining way, is on its way to win the Best Picture (most likely).
Very true Nik! It is not an embarrassment. But then again, neither was Chariots of Fire or Driving Miss Daisy. History simply remembers them that way but when they were up for Oscar they were very very popular. Everyone knows how much I loved Argo. It’s definitely in my top ten — so it’s no crime. The crime for me is breaking that Picture/Director precedent. It’s not really a stat I want to see broken.
I like the idea AMOUR wins;
Best Picture
Best Director
Best Actress
Best Screenplay
This would be the ideal and well deserved result of the Oscar night.
Yvette,
Please read my earlier comments. I find the subject matter inherently interesting but find the way it was brought to life to be uninteresting. I didn’t say the film was about the means justifying the ends, but that it would be impossible not to come to that conclusions given how the story is presented (unlike zd30). Further, simply because abraham lincoln told stories it doesnt means the way it was used was effective. Also, I already admitted earlier I am in my twenties but am secure enough in my knowledge of film and history to wager that my opinions are far better researched and justified than yours. You rely on personal attack and making claims that are in direct tension with the statements I made earlier to form your argument. That is not a coherent way to create dialogue or discussion.
Oh, and by the way, at the Awards Circuit we stress: “It’s not about who we want to win, it’s about who will win.” – The old Oscar Igloo mentality.
I take sides in my own pieces and people know my position. I root for Les Miserables and know that people, including yourself Sasha, pummeled it out there. The same way people are pummeling Lincoln. I just don’t attack them when they come onto Awards Circuit and say how much they hated it. Just not my thing.
I still respect you lots Sasha. Awards Circuit exists because of you starting this nearly 14 years ago. I recognize that.
It’s not “US vs. THEM”
We all love the movies! Let’s celebrate them! Call me a hippie.
“Fuck you and this site. I used to check it daily, but I can’t take this Lincoln crusade and holier than thou attitude. LINCOLN IS BORING, BITCH! GO FUCK YOURSELF.”
This is sad.
Fuck you and this site. I used to check it daily, but I can’t take this Lincoln crusade and holier than thou attitude. LINCOLN IS BORING, BITCH! GO FUCK YOURSELF.
@ Sasha,
you can run it the way you like – yes, but insulting people, calling them “assholes” etc isn’t acceptable because it’s not an opinion. It’s an insult and therefore a crime. And what follows now is an opinion, my opinion: DEAL WITH YOUR ISSUES! TO INSULT PEOPLE ISN’T THE WAY TO PROVE YOU ARE RIGHT! Because you are just as right as anybody else. I have an opinion and I am just as educated and have just as much insight into filmmaking etc. I’m just much younger than you, which doesn’t make you right and me wrong. When people disagree with you, they disagree with you. Insulting people won’t make them change their mind. Diversity is something to be celebrated. We’re not in the Soviet Union.
Paul,
You do realize that Spielberg and Kushner were working within the margins of historical context? I mean you do realize that Lincoln was a real person who often drove people
crazy with is storytelling? Who often went out to battlefields to speak with troops.. You do realize that the ‘end-justifying-the-means’ is not what this film is really about. Rather, that a man was willing to risk it all to do the right, moral thing. I mean, are you suggesting that Spielberg make up shit to be ‘edgy’?
The film is based on Abraham Lincoln’s political fight to get slavery abolished. Not sure exactly what you would have done as a director to film that. Because you must be a genius since no one has done it. Sometimes it seems some of you spend too much time reading film commentary to the point where it all becomes academic and abstract.
I mean, history is what it is- it seems your criticizing a moment in history for not being exciting enough and blame Spielberg.
Would you have preferred Lincoln if he slayed vampires? Was a closet KKK grand dragon? You say it was predictable…
You mean in the sense that Lincoln was a great American and did something transformational? And the film rightly demonstrates why. Is that too ‘corny’ and ‘manipulative’ for you?
How and why would have to you make an irreverent or ironic film about Lincoln? I really want to know. I bet you’re in your 20s, maybe early 30s. Your argument-against is a non-argument. You just don’t get it.
And just to prove I’m not trying to troll, here is our breakdown of the movies you mentioned above as championing:
Hugo (my favorite movie of the year last year was Drive, but you’ll get no strong arguments from me on this one)
The Hurt Locker (at the time, yes. in retrospect, I think inglorious basterds has aged better and was the best film of that year)
The Departed (agreed totally)
No Country for Old Men (strong disagree, but only because I think there will be blood is one of the best movies ever. No country and zodiac are also amazing though, so it’s not like I’d come here to bash no country, only to argue for my twbb is so fantastic)
Moulin Rouge (I’ve only seen this once and admittedly I was probably too young. No opinion either way)
Crouching Tiger (yes, totally agree)
Brokeback Mountain (agree one-thousand percent)
I will tackle these one at a time for the sake of clarity
1) Marie, I appreciate your comment, and agree that calling a film boring is not legitimate criticism but only did so for the sake of brevity. Further, I find your articulation of the themes and ideas in Lincoln to be far more fleshed out than what Sasha typically has written on the subject (to be fair to her, her posts aren’t meant primarily as film criticism). That being said, I thought the majority of these themes were made too literal and brought out in a way that was not particularly subtle within the film. I do not think that Lincoln leaves any room for intellectual investigation, unlike say ZDT. It is nearly impossible to come out of Lincoln not thinking the means had justified the ends. Caro’s excellent book ‘Master of the Senate’ explored many of these same issues with much greater nuance and allowed the reader to come to their own conclusions. Of course one cannot be weighed against the other (Lincoln is it’s own thing), but I only bring it up to show that there are works that explored the very same themes in a much more effective manner. Moreover, one of my favorite movies of the year, Amour, is, (like Lincoln), a movie that could be accused of being ‘slow’, but I never found myself bored. Haneke’s shot construction and editing choices create a sense of tensions throughout. There was no greater disparity to me, then the difference between the awesome nightmare sequence in Amour as opposed to the strange and hokey dream sequences in Lincoln. So while I agree boring is not valid criticism, it is a word I can use to sum up my feelings.
2) As for my particular critiques of what I disliked about Lincoln, I would simply say that everything felt presented in a way I found too static and staged (admittedly, this comes down to personal preference). The civil war battle that opened the movie was done no better than your average re-enactment. This does not mean I was expecting or want an action packed movie (far from it), but since that scene was included, it’s fair to say it was poorly shot. I also found the majority of the dialogue scenes relied too heavily on DDL’s performance to do the heavy lifting (he’s a great actor, no denying that). I couldn’t help but laugh at how many times they went back to the well on “Lincoln tells another story”. Moreover, the “villains” in the story were presented in a manner that was outright cartoony (to be clear, I completely identify with the liberal ideology of the movie, and thats what makes it worse – when the ideology you believe in is presented in such a unsubtle and obnoxious way you can’t help but crave someone to play devil’s advocate, there’s a problem). Everything to do with Lincoln’s family life, in my opinion, was a complete failure (save for the scenes of DDL with his younger son – those I found to be among his best moments, you really felt the warmth and love for his boy. He completely disappeared in the character in those moments).
3) The Social Network has often been invoked in these forum as an analogue to Lincoln. I could not disagree more. Both are dense and talky scripts, but where TSN derives power from it’s dialogue, it’s everything else that elevates the material (notably, propulsive score, electric editing, crisp cinematography, and brilliant scene construction – the Victoria Secret club scene leading to the Henley Race as one example). Lincoln took a dense script and made it in as stale and slow a manner as possible. I reject the idea that these two films have anything in common.
4) Sasha, you say above that only lazy minded people find Lincoln boring. Again, you insult your readers simply because they disagree with your opinion. We seem to have similar tastes from year to year (and in fact for the majority of this year), but this one disagreement makes me lazy minded? Among my favorite movies of the year: Holy Motors, Zero Dark Thirty, The Master, Amour. Someone above said naming other movies you liked was not valid in assessing Lincoln (this is true), but it is valid in defending the idea that you are lazy minded. None of those movies were easy to process, and I reject the notion that I’m lazy minded for not taking to Lincoln.
5) On that note, the most bullshit argument around the time of The Master’s release was that you had to see it twice to “get” it. No movie should “have” to be seen twice to be truly appreciated, unless the narrative confusion is so dense that you can’t fully process it after one viewing (Mulholland Drive). I admit I only saw Lincoln once, but I should want to see it a second time, not have to see it a second time. Enjoyment of a movie on a gut level is incredibly important to me in terms of how I react to them. So while I’m open to the argument that I’d appreciate Lincoln more the second time, it’s unfair to say I missed the point or need you to explain it to me to like it. Again, I don’t think this was a complex movie.
6) Finally, though I said I preferred Argo, I actually don’t think the two are worlds apart, or that either is the best movie of the year. Argo, to me, was a B or B+, while Lincoln was a B- or C+ (redeeming features: DDL, TLJ, and a script that, despite its weaknesses, still had some very strong moments). That being said, for those who say Argo fell apart in a mess of contrivances at the end (I tend to agree), isn’t it fair to say that Lincoln did the same in generating tension as to whether the Bill wouldn’t pass on time? I could be wrong, I read TOR a few years ago, but I do not think it happened exactly like this. Moreover, as between the two films, the opening scene in Argo was, to me, the best thing in either movie by far. The disparity between Argo and “best film of the year” is much narrower than the gap between Lincoln and “masterpiece”, in my opinion.
Sasha, we can all appreciate your enthusiasm for movies, and obviously you’re one of the best in the business at covering the awards game. I just think it gets a little tough to swallow when you’re counterarguments devolve to “if you don’t like it you’re too stupid to get it”. I’m willing to admit that I may not be right on all these points and furthermore, I try to repeat throughout that all this is only my opinion. I would (and probably some of us who try to be articulate in our thoughts via-Lincoln) simply appreciate if I my intellect wasn’t personally attacked for disagreeing with your opinion.
JP: Yeah, that is one thing that I find is lacking in Goldderby (which otherwise is a great site): personal input. We always get to hear Tom’s choices and he roots for them and usually picks interesting stuff like Life of Pi and Beasts this year. But in their chats they really only talk about awards and none of them ever goes: Sigh… I wish so and so had gotten nominated. He/she was so much better than these guys. I like those sighs. They make me feel like their involved.
But then again, Matt, Chris and Daniel (the other pundits at goldderby) all said that either Moonrise Kingdom or Argo was their favorite 2012 movie so… maybe I don’t want to hear much of their opinions… Maybe I AM ok with just Tom.
What a conundrum.
I also have huge problems with Life of Pi. Whenever I write here, i always try not to talk about it because it’s not exactly my cup of tea. Just like Les Mis looks not the cup of tea of Sasha and Ryan and that is one of the many things I really applaud this site for this year: for never trashing this film. When a kind of film is not our cup of tea, I think the best we can do is really not talk a lot about it. If you hate musicals, don’t trash Les Mis. If you hate historical epics (at least the ones that focus more on dialogues and politics) than battles and love stories, don’t trash Lincoln.
I don’t have a problem with this site backing a certain film. Most of the times they were not my choices and I keep reading things here over and over… sometimes I truly disagreed. As far as I remember The Aviator, a film I truly dislike, and Ben Button, a good film but really not among Fincher’s best were the championed here but I still come to this site. Disagreeing is one thing but at least I think there’s coherence here. There are no predictions and analyses made two days before an awards announcement that go against everything that was written all over. At least there are many great analyses, what I miss from Goldderby, which seems to be turning into the awards Las Vegas, with much more focus on odds than analyses despite the fact that Tom O’Neil writes so well and is always great to hear his analysis. If the editors believe one film/actor deserves, I never saw any problem of them championing it.
______________
Directing: Spielberg won’t loose. O. Russell definitely doesn’t deserve. SLP is a good pleasant film but kind of a lightweight. The Little Miss Sunshine backed by Harvey Weinstein. He has a very high merit of showing that BC can act really well but as a whole there are obviously tougher and more remarkable achievements there. Zeitlin’s reward is the nom. He can have a brilliant career… the man could make a film much more visually sunning than films that cost 150 times more. I’m not really a fan of Pi. Haneke… well… I think Amour is great but the merits of the film came much more from the script, which I have no problems in winning, than the directing itself. I think Amour’s directing is not really that tough. You have an apartment. Just an apartment. Basically two brilliant old actors that have an enormous and successful body of work. Is the directing really that risky? Does it play such a prominent role in that film? That leaves Spielberg, who directed a film that unites the perfection that we always see in his productions (stunning visuals) with amazing acting and great dialogues. I think it’s his number 3.
“I would like to echo the chorus in favor of Cloud Atlas.”
And the echo continues here. Cloud Atlas will outlast at least 3 of the 9 BP nominees this year in terms of lasting popularity and respect.
I’m not going to say which 3 because enough bad things have been said about movies today. Being away all day and just signing in now, this thread looks like battleground.
It’s always a goddamned mutiny. If you want to trash Lincoln, go somewhere else. That’s the last thing I’m going to say about it. Since people only want to trash the movie because I love it,
Well now I understand why you get so upset although I wouldn’t have guessed it otherwise. I never thought anyone was criticizing LINCOLN or any of your other favorite films over the years to indirectly attack you. I never thought that anyone who ran a film website would consider those who disagree as mutineers. I didn’t know we were supposed to all be on the same side in the first place. I just thought we were all had individual opinions. I didn’t think we were supposed to be on teams or sides. I really believe most of the people here who have commented against LINCOLN have been thinking about the film not trying to upset you. I understand now why you take it personally, but I never saw any of it as personal. Name-calling and person attacks are personal. But saying a particular film isn’t good, or even outright attacking a film, doesn’t say anything about its fans, imo.
I really didn’t understand why you’d get so offended all this time. Now I know.
No Antoinette, you have it wrong. As usual. A mutiny means readers who don’t follow the rules, who want to run the site and have it run the way they would like it to be run. And that never settles well with me. The control freak that I am and all of that.
I really believe most of the people here who have commented against LINCOLN have been thinking about the film not trying to upset you
Yeah? You should try being me on Twitter for just one day. There are other bloggers who actively waiting for Lincoln to fail just so that they say I TOLD YOU SO. There are people who will say they hate the film (who haven’t even seen it) just to pick at me. When you’ve been doing this as long as I have you recognize it. But I do appreciate your passive/aggressive comment (not).
I didn’t know we were supposed to all be on the same side in the first place.
Obviously we’re not. I don’t dictate the films people love. But I won’t stand for a tsunami of Lincoln hate, particularly since the film isn’t winning anything. Now that Argo is the frontrunner shouldn’t people start hating it?
Sasha said:
‘It’s boring to lazy minded people. Period.’
Nuff said. I have yet to read a cohesive criticism of this film beyond ‘boring’ and ‘predictable biopic’ and ‘typical Spielberg’ …
Lincoln is not a biopic and it’s not ‘typical Spielberg’. And if you use those words and phrases, you just should stupid and pretentious.
When people make these half-assed claims or when they spend an entire paragraph essentially saying the same thing over and over – it tells me that they didn’t get the film’s nuances or detailed subtleties. And they continue to be offended when some of us suggest maybe they’re just not paying attention or are too ADD to appreciate it. Well, it is what it is, and you’re still not getting it. May I suggest Lincoln detractors stop trying to sound sophisticated discussing your ‘problems with Lincoln’
Maybe you are the problem.
Thanks again Sasha for not mincing words – because I think those of us who are passionate about Lincoln secretly think it’s detractors are just too dense.
@Antoinette, @CB and @Bryce
I would like to echo the chorus in favor of Cloud Atlas. One of the truly best movies of the year (second only to The Master and followed by Lincoln/Amour).
I guess we’ll just have to wait a couple of decades for it to be declared genius.
Oh well… that’s our cross to bear…
If argo wins and they’re going to shut out lincoln, at least do it right.
Go for Ang Lee in directing, phoenix for actor (OMG! if this were to happen), Hoffman for Supp. Actor, Riva for Actress, haneke for original and please… Lincoln for screenplay…
if all this happened, I would live through the night happy. But this ain’t happening so…
“As it is, I think I’ll have to bet that if Argo wins BP, Michael Haneke will win Director, Actress and Screenplay for Amour.”
-Um, that’s a bit of a tall order, and I’m just talking about it winning ONE of those. Oddly enough, though, I think Haneke could pull off a director upset. I mean, who the hell else is going to win, assuming Affleck isn’t a write-in winner?
I also feel like you’re undermining Argo’s quality when you say that voters gravitate towards it because it was the counter-0D30. Could it simply be that it’s just the better film? I loved the shit out of Hurt Locker, personally, and 0D30 was my most anticipated of the year, and it just didn’t knock it out of the park for me. To each their own and all that jazz, but I think the only thing that might have split Argo and Zero Dark Thirty was Film Editing. Nothing else.
“Anyway, one thing is for sure, the Academy can’t be so vicious to give Spielberg’s film the most nominations this time around, just to embarrass him once again by not giving the final statuette of the night.”
– Like they did in ’86 for Color Purple? Day-Lewis won’t lose, though, so that’s not happening, and Jones will prob win, but I’m thinking Lincoln goes 2-for-12.
Sasha, you are the bravest person here. I bow to your convictions.
Let this race be united in ones opinions.
Sasha
I hate when people trash movies, you can criticize objectively without insulting anyone. Sometimes when people insult a movie that I love it feels like they’re insulting me – the law of transitive property – so I know how you feel.
I very much agree with you on
The Hurt Locker
The Departed
No Country for Old Men
Moulin Rouge
Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon
Brokeback Mountain
Hugo, I haven’t seen yet
Just try to be patient with readers. I’m sure most of them mean well. After all they’re your fans/readers.
Time to go to work
Thanks Hal but I have seen some pretty bad stuff on this site this year though it was much worse last year. I don’t need people to agree with me — it would be nice of course — but it isn’t just them insulting a movie – it’s them trashing a movie on this site. I don’t run that kind of a website or I try not to.
I say, among Lee, Spielberg AND Russell, who, I hope, won´t win.
When they want to reward The Hurt Locker, a film not loved by everyone (I think is good but overhyped, contrary to Zero Dark Thirty that is really great), the Academy is good because they went with the underdog not the big money maker: Avatar. But when they don’t want to reward the big money marker: Lincoln, they are bad because they want to go with the underdog: Argo.
Well, you see Sasha, is not a thing of logic, is just that there are different taste in everyone’s mind. I like you loved Shakespeare in Love, well beyond over Saving Private, but I understand that there are thousands that love the other movie better, and not because they are not smart to realize that SIL screenplay was great, just because we don’t think in the same way, such is life, we need to realize that different opinions make us humans and free, so don’t blame Argo, Affleck or fear for Lincoln loses, if someone is rude banned them but don’t get mad when someone just don’t have your “own personal” taste
Daveylow,
For all this, hHaneke won´t win.
It´s among Lee and Spielberg.
I hope Lee wins.
Sasha, hang in there. Ride the turbulence and emerge having advocated the beauty and value of many great movies this season. For every troll, there is a movie lover who wants to broaden their experience not blindside it. You’ve given me heaps to contemplate these past few years. Onwards and Upwards.
Just to give my two cents about Lincoln vs. Argo vs. everything else this year.
Lincoln is a very well made film, one of the best of the year in my humble opinion. #9 on my top ten. I knew the moment I saw it, there were going to be many out there who didn’t like it. The same way I knew there would be individuals who wouldn’t like Les Miserables, my #1 film of the year.
While every movie-goer is passionate and vocal about which film they want to win, it’s hard to argue against technical achievements in certain films. For example, I have huge problems with the screenplay of “Life of Pi.” A little jumbled, not cohesive, and has a lot hiccups in the middle. Technically, the film is one of the most beautiful I’ve seen in years. Miranda should and will likely win Cinematography. I can appreciate and respect the film, especially Ang Lee for his position and attempt in adapting the “unfilmable” book.
I feel you have to say the same thing about Lincoln. Whether it’s the way the history is presented, unfolded, or the seemingly never ending stories that Lincoln tells that turns you off, look at Spielberg, Kaminski, and Day-Lewis’ approach to bringing the audience in with focus, imagery, and presence. You gotta give them kudos for that at the very least.
Nathaniel Rogers said on the Film Experience how Les Miserables (in particular musicals) are the only the genre you can walk in and say “I HATE MUSICALS” yet you have to review or watch one. The film already starts at a disadvantage. I believe that applies to other genres and pieces. If you don’t like historically based films, Lincoln is at a disadvantage. If you don’t like explosions and special effects, Skyfall may not be your thing. If you don’t like British period pieces then Anna Karenina will seem like torture.
I respect Sasha for sticking to her guns with Lincoln. I also respect the individuals that thought Lincoln was like counting cotton balls for two and a half hours. I just think everyone needs to take a step back and evaluate which films do it for you and understand why someone else would feel it doesn’t do it for them.
Off topic, it’s so sad that Zero Dark Thirty has crashed and burned the way it has. If it was a year of five, ZDT wouldn’t have been there. I’m sure of that. Pitty.
That’s the power of “consensus” I guess?
Clayton Davis
The Awards Circuit
By the way, that’s Clayton saying “come on over to Awards Circuit where we tolerate other people’s opinions.” I really hate the whole “I knew people would hate Lincoln” thing. It’s not rocket science to figure out how hard of a sell that would be. What’s surprising about it is, despite that, it made $170 million and landed at number 5 on the top ten lists of all of the critics. Box office acclaim + critical acclaim used to equal Oscar wins. But in this era, where the least offensive underdog takes the whole race movies like that don’t win anymore. I think an Academy Award should represent not a sudden burst of emotion or checking off the “like” button on Facebook but it should mean something more. But by all means if you want someone who doesn’t take a side head on over to Awards Circuit. Clayton, do you want to just put an ad on your avatar to make it easier? 🙂
Argo is not going to win sound awards or score. It can win Picture and Editing and possibly screenplay at that is all. Let’s see how the editing guild goes.
“The trick is not minding”
“The trick is not minding”
No one seems to understand what I mean by that. I don’t know why it’s so hard to get. Saying the trick is not minding means you try not to act like it hurts when someone holds a flame under your hand. You fail, of course, unless you’re G. Gordon Liddy.
If Haneke gets the Oscar for director I will be a bit upset when they denied Bergman, Kurosawa, and Truffaut, all grander foreign directors in my opinion. And will they award two foreign directors in a row? Really, why should I care?
“I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate it. But at the end of the day it is a site I have fought to have a voice on. It has always been a site where the readers wanted to control the content. Back when there were forums the forums believed they WERE the website. It took a long time for me to separate me, Sasha Stone, from the readers and the forums. If you guys want to go off on Lincoln or any other movie you can go to the forums. For some reason, people want to come and bring a bag of dogshit and drop it on MY doorstep. Of all of the places they can go online to trash Lincoln this is the WRONG PLACE FOR THAT. It’s a movie I love very much. It’s a movie I’ve been writing about and championing for the better part of a year. Yes, I’ve personalized it like I personalized Hugo, The Hurt Locker, The Departed, No Country for Old Men, Moulin Rouge, Crouching Tiger, Brokeback Mountain. If anyone had come on my site and called Brokeback Mountain boring after it lost the Oscar? You should have seen what a royal cunt I was back then: I was protective of Ang Lee and still am. When readers come here JUST to say “Lincoln was boring” they are doing it to troll, to get attention, to get me mad and I can only play MEAN MOMMY for so long. I am tired of it. As I keep saying, I hate to lose the readership of a devoted reader but if that is the price I pay, I’m willing to pay it. Sorry – that’s just me.”
Reading this I better understood your point of view, I misunderstood it before, sorry. I’ve never been to awards daily forums, I didn’t notice there was a forum, I just read your posts and the comments.
Why did we (re: you) ever think the Directors branch was so powerful? It’s not the biggest branch and it too has had years where it has matched 4/5 or even 3/5 (pre-2009, of course) with Best Picture?
Ultimately, I’m not so sure that the directors dislike Argo. Maybe Affleck just wasn’t at the top of their ballots. But either way, I don’t think their opinion matters much as to who wins, especially if a film (i.e., Argo) is picking up nominations that it shouldn’t have gotten (the sound nom, for one) which show support in the technical branches.
Sasha, I’m not quite following the argument of your article. I can see where the murk, and the rise and fall (and rise?) of ZERO DARK THIRTY could have benefited ARGO. But how do you know that “the same folks, not too surprisingly, who were behind Crash’s victory against Brokeback” are behind ARGO’s success with the guilds? (And who are those “folks” anyway, besides homophobes who sent back their DVDs of BROKEBACK unopened?) BROKEBACK, of course, won the PGA and the DGA while losing the SAGs.
I happened to see ZD30 a second time today. The thread, which seemed disjointed the first time, was clearer this time. The film does suggest that torture leads to the capture of bin Laden. I believe that this is what Mark Boal and Kathryn Bigelow discovered in their research, but the politics of the finding is fraught; thus, the apoplexy by senators and knee-jerk types like Martin Sheen.
The irony is that the film may have suffered in the nominations because of the extra-early calendar. Had the deadline been even two weeks later, the film might have had some time to recover, and the Academy might have rallied around it, as it did with JFK (against which THE NEW YORK TIMES published 23 articles attacking it, if you recall).
Commercially, on the other hand, Sony was either wise or lucky in timing the wide release for Jan. 11. By that date, not only did the controversy raise up the “want-to-see” factor so that many more people have already paid to see ZD30 in theaters than saw the Bigelow-Boal Oscar triumph, THE HURT LOCKER. The backlash was also starting to lash back.
The other factor that is clear is that ZD30 is, with no fuss, one of the most feminist films ever released by a major studio (or even an indie company). In a sense, ZD30 is a SILENCE OF THE LAMBS for the 2010s. Maya is not, as some have charged, “John Wayne” in the guise of a heroine (David Thomson’s line) or a female doing all the things male heroes in movies do. Maya is indeed a woman in a male-dominated business (like Kathryn Bigelow, whether a “conscious” parallel or not). A remarkable thing about the film is how little we know about Maya. In this, she is similar to male protagonists, say, Woodstein in ALL THE PRESIDENT’S MEN, in which all the personal “stuff” is screened out and we see only the work. Maya’s obsession with bin Laden crystallizes the obsession on the part of much of the intelligence community and the public, with getting bin Laden (Obama’s re-election may very well not have happened had OBL still be around on 11-6-11). But her femaleness–Her ordinary girlness, seen through the eyes of a female director–defines much of what she does. In Laurel Ulrich’s now-axiomatic statement, “Well-behaved women seldom make history,” a concept reaffirmed when Maya tells Leon Panetta “I’m the motherfucker who found [the compound in Abbottabad].”
Sorry to digress. My main question, Sasha, is Where is LINCOLN in all this? The industry specialist who told me that while DDL and TLJ are great, the script is stagy and pedestrian. A colleague in my English department–a Civil War specialist!–found it boring. Like you, I would watch LINCOLN every day if I could. While ARGO is a good movie in its way, and does not deserve to be mentioned in the same paragraph with CRASH, a third-rate Nixon-vintage TV movie (Whoever in 2005-6 called it “Best Picture for 1971” nailed it), and was, come to think of it, seemingly in the lead until LINCOLN came along. Perhaps it never lost its lead.
But let’s see what happens. I suspect that the Academy will not repudiate its Director’s branch and rally behind a film that had its director nominated. Could the special Writers Guild Award for Tony Kushner be a reaction by the powers-that-be of the WGA to all the ARGO love, to award Kushner one way or the other? But the Academy, whose attempts to innovate, beginning really with the move to Sunday night in 1999 (the night of the SHAKESPEARE IN LOVE shocker, as it turned out) and the Jan.-Feb. calendar in 2004, have seemed to turn into second-guessing in recent years (although I think the 10 or so BP roster has been great for the Oscars and for the movies overall, although certainly more in good years like 2010 and 2012 than in weaker years like 2009 and 2011), can ill afford to undermine itself, which is what undercutting the director’s branch this time would amount to, as you say.
Thanks, as ever, for your great site, which I always enjoy.
Sasha, I’m not quite following the argument of your article. I can see where the murk, and the rise and fall (and rise?) of ZERO DARK THIRTY could have benefited ARGO. But how do you know that “the same folks, not too surprisingly, who were behind Crash’s victory against Brokeback” are behind ARGO’s success with the guilds? (And who are those “folks” anyway, besides homophobes who sent back their DVDs of BROKEBACK unopened?) BROKEBACK, of course, won the PGA and the DGA while losing the SAGs.
The Oscar strategy team is what I meant by folks. The woman behind it is one of the best in the business.
Yeah, that’s why as funny as it would be to see the Academy’s/Hollywood’s “Best Picture” only win the top award (1/7), that’s not going to happen. Should pick up editing and screenplay. But watch for the editing award early in the night…if that goes to another film, ZDT or a Silver Linings shocker (which really is a well-edited film), shit is going down. Everyone there will be a nervous wreck.
I know I’m pretty much alone in this opinion but I still have a gut feeling that come Oscar night we might here the following:
And the Oscars for Best …
– Sound Mixing
– Original Score
– Film Editing
– Costume Design
– Cinematography
– Production Design
– Adapted Screenplay
– Supporting Actress
– Supporting Actor
– Actor
– Director
– Picture
… go to Lincoln.
Anyway, one thing is for sure, the Academy can’t be so vicious to give Spielberg’s film the most nominations this time around, just to embarrass him once again by not giving the final statuette of the night.
KT,
If they really star with Voting for BP first then i can see Confirmatory Reasoning kicking in and they vote for the same movie in other categories, especially in those that they were not very sure about…
We have to celebrate Argo for all this wins. This film pleased a lot people. Handsome director, he made 3 films (A Master according to Matt Damon). People feels happy after the film. But the Cinephiles of the world, we are crying. With no director nomination and no cinematography nominations, one supporting actor nomination. For the story, you have to close your eyes for the truth, where are the Canadian who helped (I am Canadian), but films are not documentaries. I preferred The KIngdom by Peter Berg to this simplemind film, at least it has no pretension of a true story. If you want a true film experience, Amour, Beasts are far better. But Oscars are to please people. So we have to accept it.
^^^ I’m not sure that’s how it works though. I think they always start with Best Picture, and then work their way down filling in the other categories. Agree if Argo doesn’t win editing…and depending on the outcome of Best Director, HOLY SHIT the suspense will be high.
Lincoln is going to win Best Picture. Academy members will not write Argo at the top of their list after not checking a single box beside the word Argo. It’s a psychological thing.
If Argo doesn’t win Editing, it won’t win Best Picture. And 2012 will be one for the history books.
I would be fine with almost everything…Lincoln losing BP, Spielberg losing BD, even DDL losing BA. But Kushner HAS to win best adapted screenplay…Some voters should see and recognize the quality of his work for Lincoln…it is at a different level than others…
Yeah, that’s what I’m thinking is probably the max (4 wins). Lincoln and Life Of Pi can certainly match or exceed that. Maybe 3 is the most likely (it should absolutely be lower if they actually vote based on the achievement of the screenplay and editing, both of which Argo is not the best). Someone on another site mentioned how the Argo screenplay will likely be highly regarded due to how it balances tones: excellent beginning, serious Middle East conflict, with thriller/drama and satire. That still wouldn’t be enough for me to vote it over Lincoln. Tony Kushner’s script is so brilliantly inhabited, and largely responsible for the way Lincoln recreates the 1860s political environment. I can’t remember anything from the Argo score, it didn’t resonate with me at all…but we all know how good the Academy’s taste in music is LOL
That’s believable.
And very sad, especially screenplay. Kushner’s screenplay is one of the best of the last ten years. It’s an extraordinary piece and all that character detail and history.
And very sad, especially screenplay. Kushner’s screenplay is one of the best of the last ten years. It’s an extraordinary piece and all that character detail and history.
I know. It boggles my mind…
This might be oversimplifying things, but I’m just glad that I have enjoyed everything I’ve seen this year–eight such different films (I haven’t seen Amour yet).
I really like the way the awards race–specifically Oscar but more in general–creates this wonderful dialogue about what is and isn’t the best film–both between the nomination process and the awards process. It really makes you wonder–is there ONE Best Picture? Was the BEST PICTURE actually even nominated that year for an Oscar, for a Golden Globe, for a Critics Choice?
This might have all been said before, but for once I don’t have a hard core favorite that SHOULD win BP this year. That having been said, I really feel for the people who are particularly invested in certain films this year and are being disappointed.
I was hoping for the amusement of watching David O. Russell win the Oscar without a DGA nom–after the reverse situation took place for Ben Affleck. I don’t think it will happen. But one thing for sure–this year’s race has made transparent, more than ever before, the nature of this all as a “game.”
Definitely…I forgot to put that in my post. Yeah, Argo’s out of Sound Mixing.
Definitely…I forgot to put that in my post. Yeah, Argo’s out of Sound Mixing.
I don’t know. If Argo can win Best Picture it can win sound. Okay so take out sound and you have, at best, Picture, Screenplay, Editing, Score. That’s believable.
LES MIZ will win Sound Mixing. It is obvious. ARGO isn’t getting it.
You know, after all of this, and having accepted that Argo will win Best Picture, I am hoping it only takes home the Best Picture trophy. Yes, going 1 for 7. Then, we have another reason to cite how stupid voters/the Academy are that they cannot recognize superior filmmaking, how utterly restrictive the preferential ballot/the Best Picture setup are, and how RIDICULOUS the Hollywood kiss-assing and awards season as a whole are.
SUPPORTING ACTOR: Please NO!!! Could be one of the shocks of the night, but you can count Arkin out.
√EDITING: Very likely, though this award belongs to Zero Dark Thirty – will they actually award Kathryn Bigelow’s film FOR ANYTHING?!?!
SOUND EDITING: Unlikely
SOUND MIXING: Unlikely — both will probably go to showier nominees, hopefully Editing to Zero Dark Thirty; Mixing to Skyfall (which could win both) or Life Of Pi…but Argo could come through here if support is unanimous.
ORIGINAL SCORE: Possible. I know by now to never predict John Williams. I love him tremendously (and I like the Lincoln score), but every time I pick him he loses, even the last time he won the Golden Globe (Memoirs of a Geisha, and believe it or not he has fewer of those than Oscars). This is between Desplat’s unmemorable Argo score and Hanna’s Pi. I wish Desplat’s Zero Dark Thirty got in here, for its enormously effective and innovative use of music. I’m leaning toward Life of Pi.
√ADAPTED SCREENPLAY: Possible. This belongs to Tony Kushner, his MONUMENTAL effort. Lincoln’s screenplay is an incredible achievement. It’s ALREADY being taught in screenwriting classes!!! I’m worried that “Argo fuck yourself” has entered so much into the zeitgeist that a Chris Terrio win could happen. THIS is the category to watch, likely Argo but fingers crossed for Kushner. If Kushner takes this, and Lincoln wins Actor, Supporting Actor, and even Director (not as likely), it will be ridiculous when Argo wins.
——-
Also, for better or worse, Jessica Chastain has recognized in a London interview this weekend the “politics” of the Oscar race. I think she realizes that the film is too hot for her to have the best chance to win. I’m going to be upset with the result of Best Actress–I know it. How the Academy will probably not reward a serious, classical-trained actress with enormous range and versatility over the last two years, with great box office success, with a great story of spending “years on the sidelines,” playing an inspiring real-life heroine who the world can never honor for getting Bin Laden, is BEYOND ME!!
Ramiro,
Who are you?/ Quem é você?
Everyone says Kushner can’t lose.
I say Tennessee Williams, The Great, was nominated twice and lost twice.
Arthur Miller lost in The Crucible too – for Billy Bob Thorton.
So…
“Sam, you say that Chris Terrio has won nothing from critics groups. In fact, Alliance of Women, Austin, Black, Florida, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Oklahoma, Online, Phoenix, San Diego and Southeastern critics groups have all rewarded Chris Terrio for Lincoln. That’s 11 wins out of 20 mentions for Terrio. 11 is also the same as Tony Kushner’s tally.”
Fair enough Paddy. What I was basically saying was that it didn’t win from the major critics’s groups, and the Globes. ‘Nothing’ was admittedly the wrong word, especially since it did win LA. On this I came with the wrong information. In any case I still can’t see Terrio winning the WGA ahead of Kushner, not the Oscar in the same category.
I agree with Sasha that Argo is easy stuff for the Academy. I’ve said it before: the script reads like the writer read that adding suspense and obstacles at every turn makes for a compelling watch. Frankly, too many obstacles negates all of them. Alan Arken trying to get to the ringing phone/plane being shot at/movie art being looked at – if one can’t stop them, none can. And my leg stops jittering from it. So it means nothing. I’ve said this before and I stand by it: Argo aims for a B+, achieves the B+, and gets an A from everyone.
However, I’m with Paul (down to Nixonland – so good! read Before the Storm, too) – I found Lincoln unchallenging, and not as ambitious a biopic as I think Honest Abe deserves. Malcolm X and Ali are challenging, ambitious, and endlessly watchable biopics. I just don’t feel that way about Lincoln. I wish I did…
It’s so much more fun coming to this site when I’m on the same bandwagon as Sasha, like I was with The Social Network and Hugo the past 2 years.
It might have to do with the fact that I’m not American, but I just didn’t connect with Lincoln the way I thought I would. I wouldn’t say I found it boring at all, it’s still a superb film but it’s not my pick for Best Picture. Frankly I’d prefer to see Django win, but I just loved Argo too much to not be happy to see it win.
More so because it address the beauty of the English language.
Thank you!
I’ll address my post yesterday. Hollywood is very aware of Oscar history. In order to win Best Picture – Argo must pull in multiple wins at least three. None of Argo’s other nominations has a strong win attached to it. The Lincoln screenplay will win because it is attached to a Pultzer Prize, Tony winner. More so because it address the beauty of the English language.
I’ve finally seen LINCOLN yesterday and this movie sucks. Maybe it is important for American audience but Spielberg once again has shown the world that he can destroy even the most interesting subject. It’s too kitsch for me, sorry.
ARGO doesn’t deserve to win Academy Award but it deserves to win with LINCOLN. Still – I’d prefer LIFE OF PI or DJANGO UNCHAINED. Or AMOUR. Or even BEASTS OF THE SOUTHERN WILD. I haven’t seen SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK and ZERO DARK THIRTY yet.
Astonishing to me how few people are even paying attention to this.
Because it’s the “old boys club”. Everyone’s too busy running around hysterical that poor Ben was “snubbed” and ignoring that one of our greatest producers has yet to win an Oscar.
Compare Affleck’s resume to Kathleen’s and then we can start having a discussion on what constitues a “snub”
Ugh… blood boiling!
i am sure its psychological. possible 5-10 noms for film opens the field. for good and bad. i wonder if there is some math equation here for the last years with the expansion. i strongly believe we will see more surprises in the director field with 5 out of 5to10 nominated movies (aka more movies on the run with a chance). this is going to be tough to predict in the years to come. as i am always disappointed of the nominations (some omissions are scandalous, clous atlas’ a shame, arkin is around 30th best supporting male performance this year), i have learned to endure this whole procedure til the end. these last years i place some considerable bets also. its fun i guess, i ve been a traveler on this race for more than two decades and i always come back here and a couple other decent sites. there shouldnt be hard feelings between fellow movie-lovers, there are not so many as you think.
As many other said, I’ve also been following Sasha’s site since I can´t remember. I’m a film critic from Argentina and I have a blog and I all can say, regardless which are our favourite films of 2012, regardless which films we want to see awarded, that the sad thing is not being able to discuss movies and change opinions about them. I think that is the point. Sometimes reading other points of view, even if they’re different from ours, is a great experience, writing about movies like you do, Sasha, and having people reading what you publish/write is something that you earned. It’s great, not that common, and if you are, as I can see, fascinated about motion pictures, I imagine that talking about them can be equally fascinating. It sounds like a given that exchanging opinions can be interesting, but apparently is not. For instance, Lincoln didn’t blew my mind, Life of Pi did. I also agree with Elton about the importance of directing actors (regarding David O. Russell) and many other things, but I’m open to reading other opinions, like Ryan’s beautiful piece about Lincoln, for instance. If we can express our impressions equally passionate and insightful, then we might not change other people’s mind, but create a fullfiling debate. Discussing movies, that is the whole point.
No, the whole point of this website is that every year this same sad shit happens. It’s always a goddamned mutiny. If you want to trash Lincoln, go somewhere else. That’s the last thing I’m going to say about it. Since people only want to trash the movie because I love it, you should also trash Life of Pi, Beasts of the Southern Wild, Amour and Zero Dark Thirty. But of course, you would NEVER do that. I run the site the way I run the site. No matter what you guys say – dudes, I have heard it all. 14 years. Alls I’m saying. My only other option at this point is to moderate comments like the Ebert and the NY Times does. They get to decide what comment gets published. So far, Ryan and I have controlled the comments pretty well so we don’t need to do that but this year I’m very close doing just that. Comments mostly ruin websites – I hate going to read a story and then have to read the subsequent reveal of the grossest comments that reside the darkest corners of the human brain. Many of the ones here are insightful and interesting and above all, kind. Those that aren’t get the boot. Usually the anti-Lincoln comments are directly squarely at me. You guys don’t think I can tell? It’s so obvious. And I’ll protect the movie over your right to “free speech,” which doesn’t apply to the editorial content of a privately owned website.
Unlikely hood, you said it just right:
“There’s something eyes-on-the-audience, ultra-safe, bumper-pool, uber-digestible, about the style of The King’s Speech, The Artist, and Argo. The films rarely cut away from characters who are talking. The basic screenplay structure – Act 1, show our lead doing his thing, disrupt his world, have him do little about it, Act 2, he starts to do something, rising action then falling action, at act’s end he got what he wanted but not what he needed, Act 3, race to get what he needs – is followed as closely as anyone ever followed L. Ron Hubbard. The acting is excellent and immersive. The stories of all three aren’t quite true, but they feel like the most handsome possible way to polish real events.”
Sasha
I’ve seen Argo twice, I’ve seen Lincoln once and I don’t know if I can see it again. Why? It took a toll on me emotionally, I loved the film. There is no denying that Lincoln is the far superior film in every aspect. Argo is a very charming movie that I can watch many times but it’s not groundbreaking by any mean. It does make me a little bit sad that it’s winning everything and Lincoln is not getting the accolades that it rightfully deserved. Many say Lincoln -the film- is too American and It won’t translate overseas and it doesn’t have the universality factor, that might be true but so is Argo. I am not an American, and it was a very emotional experience watching the movie. The second movie that I personalized in this year race is Life of Pi which I think it’s a triumph in filmmaking, plus I love Ang Lee.
I love this site, I come here almost everyday. I think you’re a great writer but it seems that you have personalized Lincoln so much that you’re not willing to listen to anything else. I hope you won’t delete comments that say that Lincoln is “a boring film” because I still believe that you are above that, and I still believe that you made a site that anyone can still express their opinions even if they don’t agree with our own, they might be harsh to read but as long as they are not personal attacks I hope that you let the commenters comment.
This site has grown so much and you must know that. It’s not your lawn anymore it’s more like a public garden. I hope this comes across as a complement.
P.S. I love the article
I love this site, I come here almost everyday. I think you’re a great writer but it seems that you have personalized Lincoln so much that you’re not willing to listen to anything else.
I’m willing to listen to plenty – just not willing to have a pile of dogshit of a comment stink up my lawn.
This site has grown so much and you must know that. It’s not your lawn anymore it’s more like a public garden. I hope this comes across as a complement.
I understand what you’re saying and I appreciate it. But at the end of the day it is a site I have fought to have a voice on. It has always been a site where the readers wanted to control the content. Back when there were forums the forums believed they WERE the website. It took a long time for me to separate me, Sasha Stone, from the readers and the forums. If you guys want to go off on Lincoln or any other movie you can go to the forums. For some reason, people want to come and bring a bag of dogshit and drop it on MY doorstep. Of all of the places they can go online to trash Lincoln this is the WRONG PLACE FOR THAT. It’s a movie I love very much. It’s a movie I’ve been writing about and championing for the better part of a year. Yes, I’ve personalized it like I personalized Hugo, The Hurt Locker, The Departed, No Country for Old Men, Moulin Rouge, Crouching Tiger, Brokeback Mountain. If anyone had come on my site and called Brokeback Mountain boring after it lost the Oscar? You should have seen what a royal cunt I was back then: I was protective of Ang Lee and still am. When readers come here JUST to say “Lincoln was boring” they are doing it to troll, to get attention, to get me mad and I can only play MEAN MOMMY for so long. I am tired of it. As I keep saying, I hate to lose the readership of a devoted reader but if that is the price I pay, I’m willing to pay it. Sorry – that’s just me.
Oops! I hit enter whilst writing.
Anyways, just wanted to wrap up by saying that I encourage others to follow suit and stop reading/feeding some of the outlets responsible for this year’s clusteruck.
Fascinating timeline and argument!
I can’t help but share a sense of bitterness over how this year has gone down. For every cry of ‘poor Ben Affleck’ I plead ‘Kathryn Bigelow’. Shitting on Zero Dark Thirty was a terrible mistake for industry peeps and journos. A studio took a significant risk in bringing a timely, ballsy film to the big screen. Like Argo, Zero Dark Thirty is solid entertainment, but it also had something to say.
My personal way of responding, actually, has been to stop resding The Guardian. I’m all for impassioned assessments of a film, and I believe that negative reviews are part of this job, but there is a difference between critical assessment and vindictive slander. And Hollywood Elsewhere.
I’m not a huge Lincoln fan, but the anti-Spielberg sentiment is ridiculous. baffles me that
@Ryan
Yes Ryan, I’m not taking it personally, and I’ve never had a comment removed, but I think that cinema is a vehicle to share ideas and grow through them. I get it’s difficult to manage a site like yours, I get it’s very difficult to moderate when so much passion and different approaches come into play but I don’t understand the “like the contents or go away cause I hate dealing with you people if you disagree”.
Just that.
PS: I read only today your post on Lincoln, very good reading, thanks.
@fabinho, em argo eu (c)argo. hahaahah
melhor filme do ano? acima de django? holy motors?
tu tá de brinks ca galere.
que que é aquela cena do aeroporto?? spielberg é meloso e clichê, mas o filme dele no aeroporto foi menos tosco q aquilo! quem são os iranianos, indios tontos? fodeu o filme, que começou tao bem…
OT – Don’t look on twitter. Darren Aronofsky tweeted a spoiler about “House of Cards”. I’d only watched the first one. lol I knew this releasing everything at once was a bad idea.
just to finish… i think i would go for best direction for Wes Anderson. really well directed movie. and best movie for django.
fuck the oscars.
The Apollo 13/Braveheart pattern still has to give Lincoln some hope.
@Goodvibe61
So: You might be right about Winslet (Iris, The Reader) in 2013, but keep an eye on Labor Day later this year to see how it performs and what the critical reaction is; it might put her back in the game.
It’s at the top of my to-see list! Thank you for reminding me of this upcoming possible WIN for WINSlet!
Argo could be the Best Picture winner with the weakest group of additional wins. Picture, Editing, Score, Sound.
It’s be lucky too.
sasha, i love you and your site. for real. i’m here at least for the last four years. and never went nowhere else. and ryan, nobody talks about you, but you really are a nice guy.
by the way, let’s not get so emotional here. there are many internet-geek-boys here that are in high school or something.
anyway, despite being faithful, i didn’t like Z30 neither BOSW (this one i tought was really boring): actually, i didn’t like amour, les miz, life of pi – silver linings was funny, argo ok but with an AWFUL ending (that fucking airport scene), lincoln ok (a lot of arrogance ad spielberg shit, but…).
to me, the best (american financed) movie of the year was django – despite it not being the best from tarantino.
i would go to best film/direction as it follows:
tarantino – django
pta – the master
sam mendes – skyfall
wes anderson – moonrise kingdom
nolan – tdkr OR leo carax – holy motors (foreign guy)
_____________________________
zahlin (or stg like that) – BOSW
haneke – amour (foreign guy)
bigelow – z30
cronenberg – cosmopolis
FOR ME, these are contenders. the rest is the rest. entertaining, as those posts here were..
Argo could be the Best Picture winner with the weakest group of additional wins. Picture, Editing, Score, Sound. That is not a flashy group. Especially win Lincoln would match with Actor, Supporting Actor, Adapted Screenplay.
However, we can’t forget that an Argo wave could have it beating Lincoln for Adapted Screenplay. Remember Precious winning Adapted Screenplay? NOBODY was picking that, and the Academy loved it enough to give it an additional victory. So, if you factor in a possible wave, then Argo could take Picture, Adapted Screenplay, Editing, Score, and a Sound award. That group looks much better with Screenplay included. I don’t think Alan Arkin will get enough support though to win for Supporting.
But I still don’t think Lincoln is dead. Apollo 13 had the same pattern as Argo. So I think we’ll have to wait until the WGA, ACE, and BAFTA weigh in before making a final choice.
Speaking of Kate Winslett in this thread, I happened to catch a screening of Jason Reitman’s Labor Day.
It’s the kind of film that has the potential to be popular, and the combination of a love story mixed with some thriller elements makes it ripe to garner some critical acclaim as well. The two lead performances, by Winslet and Josh Brolin, are going to be highly regarded by the public, especially the retired set.
But what I keep thinking about Labor Day, as this awards season is winding down, is that the movie feels distinctly “safe” to me, despite its thrilleresque plot. You don’t feel any real danger is hanging over the characters, it has a nice bow tacked on to the end of it, and I think it will become a significant success in the market place, making it a film people might look at as award worthy.
So: You might be right about Winslet in 2013, but keep an eye on Labor Day later this year to see how it performs and what the critical reaction is; it might put her back in the game.
What my point was about those films being bastard children is that it seems obvious to me now that the way the Oscar race is run, you’re more at a disadvantage if your own studio has another more Oscar-baity film in contention. This year The Weinstein Company and Warner Bros. could have owned the entire awards season if they wanted to. They had enough films to do it. But they played favorites amongst their own children, deciding early which films they would push and which they wouldn’t. Because of that some of my favorite films anyway had next to no support in terms of Oscar this year. I don’t know how much it costs to run these campaigns but if you have great films in your stable I can’t understand only running one. I think TWC gave them all a little chance to prove themselves at least but bet on SILVER LININGS PLAYBOOK. Perhaps that’s even why DJANGO UNCHAINED was released so late. I don’t know. But the later start date with this calendar didn’t seem to help. Either way SLP is definitely more Oscar friendly if you have to pick and choose. I just don’t get picking ahead of time.
It now is firmly in my suspicious little mind that TDKR was kicked to the curb immediately after it became Oscar poison because of unforeseen events and ARGO became the WB show pony. Especially after CLOUD ATLAS had the ridiculous yellowface controversy and THE HOBBIT suffered from a combination of the “too soon” handicap and the 48fps problem. If these films had been at competing studios I think that all four of them would have lasted into the Oscar race for a lot longer at the very least.
You guys all remember how much I liked LAWLESS right? lololol So dumb.
I’ve held out hope for a Kushner win in Adapted Screenplay all along. But it struck me watching Argo a 2nd time that — with it being such a strong Guild movie — a Chris Terrio win at the WGA is probably going to happen. When Arkin’s character cracks the joke about the WGA, I realized that’s a totally inside joke placed right there for them to eat up. No one else in the general audiences I watched the film with twice got that joke at all, even though its supposed to be a funny line. No laughs from anyone. The WGA is going to love being mentioned in a big-time contender and they get the joke. Terrio has obviously studied and mastered the hallmarks of the traditional screenplay format (Blake Snyder would be proud, as one can easily pick apart Terrio’s script and match it up with everything on his beat sheet for perfect structure).
All that said, Kushner’s Lincoln script abandoned traditional structure and yet he still made a winner of a movie out of it. Best dialogue in the movies this year, hands-down.
This is the first Oscar site I commented. It was in 2004 – when I was fighting whit all my forces for a victory for The Aviator.
I wondered it wasAcademy’s blog, for the name Oscarwatch.
I like passionate minds. But a really think, sometimes, Sasha is very rude and very “my site, my place, my control, my favorite film is the best film” .
And this is really disgusting and sounds like imature.
There’s no reason for a site lives whitout readers and comments.
Just saying – in peace.
There is something about the director’s work on a film that I rarely see people that do not work in film business talk about: DIRECTING ACTORS. I think it’s a point that really counts in the BD race.
When we watch and recognize a great performance by an actor/actress we usually don’t remember that it is a result of the colaboration of an actor with the director. Directors directs actors. And that is one of the most difficult tasks in directing, since you’re – in most of times – not an actor and Acting is one of the most complex “sciences” in the world. The relationship between ensemble and director is very intense.
That’s why we see actors talking about how great is working with Tom Hooper – who rehearses several weeks before shooting and always work close to the actors – and also people that dislike David Fincher because he does LOTS of takes, stress his actors and it’s not the cutest guy with his esemble.
Through Oscar’s history we’ve seen Academy showing admiration to directors known as great directors of actors like Stephen Daldry, Mike Leigh, George Cukor, Alexander Payne, Clint Eastwood, Anthony Minghella, Woody Allen, James Ivory, Milos Forman, just to name a few.
Well, I think in a year like this, when the Directing category is so open and there’s a contender loved by actors, whose film got 4 acting nominations and who latest film got 2 oscars to its actors, this contender must seriously be considered in the race. I mean, O. Russel made Bradley Cooper deliver a good performance! Bradley Cooper!
I don’t know how much are his chances, but I think he’s surely on the game.
Do understand Argo gets Hollywood in the history books. Argo creates the illusion to many that Hollywood had something to do with the politics of the time. If you reward it consciously or unconsciously with “Best Picture” you are voting for the United States of Hollywood. Now one does not have to deal with the Hollywood mundane gossip but grand historical fact. Think about it.
To Paul,
I see your point about Sasha’s occasional generalizations, but I still will state again that calling Lincoln ‘boring’ is not film criticism. In your post, you still didn’t explain why its boring. You simply defended your knowledge on the subject and stated which films/projects you preferred.
Plus, when we are talking about whether or not a film is boring, we are referring to the film in and of itself–intrinsically.
And with that in mind, it is a movie of ideas–ideas about the burdens of leadership (inherent inevitable loneliness and self-containment), what degree of compromise is acceptable, public presentation of oneself’s beliefs (Steven’s playing down social equality), spirituality as a means of understanding one’s role in history (free will or lack thereof –“Do we choose to be born”), about pragmatic vs idealistic visions for the future (for example, Lincoln’s conversation with Keckley touched on some of this as well as the uncharted [at the time unknowable]territory of post-slavery race relations), about politicians adapting to public attitudes, about whether a true democracy can exist without anarchy, about picking one’s battles, about which ones should come first– equality before the law or full social equality, and the film even touches on what Lincoln once said “as our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew” in the five minute monologue on the legal riskiness of the emancipation proclamation.
I, by the way, have read Team of Rivals as well as “Fate of Liberty; Abraham LIncoln and civil liberties”..as well as several articles from the Abraham Lincoln Historical cooperative. Kushner’s script subtlely and almost poetically touched on a lot of this stuff but its a 2.5 hour movie, there is only so much a film can delve into.
Its definitely a movie of ideas; maybe not the ideas you’d like it to be about or the degree to which those ideas are explored, but ideas nonetheless. What I took the most from the movie was that even with all the flaws inherent in our system (as well as moral grey areas), it is still preferrable to the anarchy and social darwinism that anti-government folks seem to prefer. This is not simple anti-slavery film; its a pro-government film (but with a skeptical, realistic presentation of guy wrenching compromise.)
I enjoyed Cloud Atlas and thought it was wierd it wasnt even nominated for at least make-up…But then again, its the oscars…so anything goes.
[I know it’s you, Kel, please stop being irritating. Kay thanks.]
considering that the Academy have so much extra time to consider their vote this season, we are more in the dark about the outcome than previous year. We don’t know if the precursors will stick.
the drag is that the Awards should have been spread around more. No way Argo deserves them all…. it reflects poorly on the awarding bodies.
I don’t know if the Academy were ever about the American public. Or any public for that matter. They were created to maintain the industry and look after themselves.
Re State of the Race: I do think that Lincoln’s chances are fading, but 3 big prizes still look good for DDL, TLJ and Kushner. The lack of pre-cursors may be affecting its original sheen of 12 nominations and perception that it led the race.
I think too much time and activity has taken place between the announcement of nominations and the deadline for votes to be cast. Timing and perception i always feel are critical to how this eventuates. Whatever has the most colour and movement waved in front of voters for these final days of the campaign are critical. Whether AMPAS does go their own way rmeains to be seen.
I would love to see Life of Pi take BP/BD – or at least director, for the most brilliant realisation of such a difficult story. I don’t think AMour will win more than Foreign Film, and unless Harvey saturates with SLP, i don’t see that film ovetaking Argo momentum wise. Out of the 5 directors they must choose from – i still believe it will be Spielberg or Lee. But which one? Haven’t got a clue. But would be happy if either wins, and if either goes on to take Best Picture.
lily, the academy hasn’t even started voting yet! and they’ve already given lincoln a hefty number of noms. so let’s wait until the final envelope is open, before we start bashing them, shall we?
Paul,
you said everything.
@Bryce Forestieri
Another one! Well that makes my year then, and it’s only early February 😉
The great thing about Cloud Atlas, vs. almost all the other nominees this year, is that no matter what, it’ll be watched years on out into the future. Love it or hate it, it’s a thoroughly different and impossibly replicatable achievement. The fact that they did 6 narratives all at once and it was still understandable (much less enjoyable, moving, thought-provoking, and beautiful) means that it will remain an immortal and singular cinematic work of art. The great thing about the Wachowskis, and Tom Twyker, is that they make films for themselves. Each has had one movie cross over into public love (Matrix, Run Lola Run) and now their more recent stuff is either ignored or disliked. Whatever. I love Speed Racer. I love the Matrix sequels. I love Cloud Atlas.
I stopped caring about this Oscar race, when they snubbed The Dark Knight Rises, one of the greatest films ever made. And now we have Argo winning Best Picture, it could go down as the worst Best Picture winner ever. Hello People!!!! Are you guys not as surprised as me that Argo is sweeping everything? Why, just why? Lincoln, Silver Linings Playbook, Zero Dark Thirty, and Les Miserables all put Argo to shame.
@Antoinette and @CB
CLOUD ATLAS wipes the floor with ARGO so bad this whole thing reeks to disgrace
i think academy voters should be embarrassed that their taste is not as mature as the general public of all things, who endorsed that so-called “boring, talky” movie to the tune of $170 million. that shit used to MATTER to these people, and for fair enough reason, in my opinion, considering box office is the only voice the public has. it doesn’t mean the crappy summer blockbusters should win best picture, but if the public actually loves one of those prestigious, oscar-friendly, well-reviewed period epics that they always loved to vote for in the past…why on earth would they not take this chance? that is just bizarre and fucked up to me. i mean, this doesn’t happen every year anymore, they should jump at the opportunity
Antoinette, the fact that anyone else in the world loves Cloud Atlas – that is the small comfort I will draw this Oscar season.
I think Argo is gonna defy history and win BP and I also think Spielberg will not get his third Director Oscar this year. I think we’re seeing the tide has already turned. This means Haneke will probably win Director (though I’m hoping for David O. Russell) and screenplay is probably go to Argo, if only as a proxy Affleck vote. I’m seeing a Lincoln shut-out except for Actor and maybe set design. This is a fascinating year – a year where each film will get 1 – 3 Oscars. In a weird way, it’s more satisfying than a sweep year, even if your film doesn’t win all the ones you want, at least everyone gets a piece of the pie.
Oh, I give up. Let the children fight. If the only way to make a point around here is to do it through hypocrisy, cheerleading and playing the intellectual inferiority card, then let them tear each other apart like wolves.
I’ll read with the adults now.
Argo for the win.
Sasha Stone: “I think a BP win without director is a bad precedent….”
I think you better start getting used to it if the amount of best picture nominees is always over five, and the directors is locked at only five. Or if the directors branch of the Academy keeps voting nominees before the DGA nominees come out.
I just think it will keep happening as the rules have now changed.
@ Sam,
ARGO won the Los Angeles Film Critics Association for best screenplay! It’s one of the top three critics, so it’s not NOTHING!
Sasha,
I must disagree, once again, with both your characterization that Lincoln is a film about “ideas” or that it is boring for simple minded people. For one, I’ve only seen you mention the buzzword “ideas” without articulating what those ideas are. Are they, as you state later on, “It was certainly not all Lincoln was about. It was about Lincoln as a politician, it was about how difficult it is to change minds, it was about equality, it was about his relationship with his wife, it was about his team of rivals and yes, it was about making history”? If so, I would argue none of these things were presented in a compelling or subtle way.
Secondly, you suggest this movie is only boring to the simple minded but have you considered that it is in fact boring to those who are already well educated in the subject? Or that the presentation of the material was done in a way that was boring? I could be wrong but believe you stated you’ve never read all of Team Of Rivals – I have, as well as all of Robert Caro’s books on Lyndon Johnson and the Power Broker, Nixonland, biographies on Carnegie, Vanderbilt, Rockefeller, Rise and fall of the third reich etc. I state these not to appear intellectually superior but to prove that I’m someone who finds the material (politics, history and biography) inherently interesting but find Lincoln’s presentation of them to be incredibly boring as well as unsubtle. Though they are different mediums, the Netflix TV version of House of Cards has made the passing of a bill significantly more interesting to me, and in theory, nothing is different but how that material was presented.
We couldn’t agree more about how awesome of a movie The Social Network is, and I would never say you don’t have the right to your own opinion, but as a reader, I’d appreciate if you didn’t try to put those who dislike Lincoln as intellectually inferior, particularly when the opposite might well be the truth. Of the movies I’ve seen nominated for best picture (all of them but Les Miz), Lincoln was by far the one I liked the least. Lincoln is not an intelligent movie, and I know multiple people in my cohort (well read, educated twentysomethings) who felt the same way. Argo isn’t the best movie nominated, but it’s better than Lincoln (IMO).
Secondly, you suggest this movie is only boring to the simple minded but have you considered that it is in fact boring to those who are already well educated in the subject?
Educated on the subject is beside the point. Educated on the subject is to miss everything about Lincoln that makes it the masterpiece that it is and I don’t care what any of you guys think – I really don’t. Start your own blog and wax philosophic about it but you will never convince me that what I have seen in that film isn’t great. You just won’t. Sorry.
Argo isn’t the best movie nominated, but it’s better than Lincoln (IMO).
No, it isn’t. I don’t care what you people say in the post-game pile-on, I know where Argo was when the race began – I remember what the critics (liked it, weren’t blown away) thought. I was deeply moved by Lincoln not just because of the history but because of the language, the writing and the cinema language. Lincoln is a long, elegant ballet. What it offers may be too subtle for the average movie goer (although $170 million says otherwise) and I will never not think that only lazy minded people find it boring. I happen to know three people who I respect and know very well and perhaps they were bored. But give me ten minutes with them to explain why this movie is so good and they would change their mind and watch it again. I don’t like it when movies you can get all in one go are celebrated as the year’s best. I like it when films you can dive back into multiple times get rewarded. I like it when great achievements that were toiled over for years and years get rewarded. I like it when people consider things beyond checking off the like box on Facebook. Alas, the Oscar race isn’t the place to go looking for that.
sometimes you read things that just leave you searching for words, but you know on the other hand you find real gold nuggets comments that are well thought out and fair , at the very least willing to consider the other side arguments!
that is a good thing this site has going for it…
personally i’ve written monologues because i get all revved up over what i read and trends i see these past weeks but then i delete it because just before submitting i think is it worth it?, should i really bother saying this when i know what will be said seeing as this is a privately owned blog!
its not like i don’t understand her stance but its the delivery aie aie aie….(that’s french for yikes) and this is all i’ll say coz i’ve heard you loud and clear ! that’s why i censure myself
ok now i really mean it until the baftas 🙂
I just recently re-watched “Argo”. It falters on second viewing in my opinion. Once you remove all the suspense, I found only the first 20 minutes to be captivating. Once they cut to the Hollywood portions, I feel that the film begins to unravel.
On the contrary, I also re-watched “Amour”, and by god, that film still had me enthralled. I was completely devastated by the end of it, even though I knew what was coming.
“You can’t stop what’s coming.”
Comparing Argo to Crash is just a dummy spit.
I have no great love for Argo, and I haven’t seen Lincoln, but I like others here have watched you consistently play its chances down for your beloved Lincoln.
Now that Argo is sweeping its time to board that train
Now that Argo is sweeping its time to board that train
I will never board that train. Sure, it might win Best Picture but it’s still a train I’ll never board.
“Sam, you say that Chris Terrio has won nothing from critics groups. In fact, Alliance of Women, Austin, Black, Florida, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Oklahoma, Online, Phoenix, San Diego and Southeastern critics groups have all rewarded Chris Terrio for Lincoln. That’s 11 wins out of 20 mentions for Terrio. 11 is also the same as Tony Kushner’s tally.”
Yes. That’s the proliferation of awards thats making the Oscars just a ratify act. But in this case it’s just impossible to compare. It’s a clear case of quantity over importance. Just the fact that Kushner won New York, National Society, Boston and Critics Choice makes him a lot more rewarded than Terrio.
Have you watched grass grow? I find it fascinating: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbiQtfr6AYk
“It’s the slow knife that cuts the deepest.”
Lincoln is this year’s slow knife.
Watching LINCOLN is more boring than watching gras grow.
Ang Lee should best Director.
I’m hoping for upsets across the board. If the academy starts out awarding Tommy L Jones best supporting and Anne Hathaway best supporting, I’m turning it off, because it’s a done deal across the board. Please academy, give us some surprises!
*Edit-good description.
@Antoinette-Cheating is a very goof description.
Because it’s the picture Oscar deserves, but not the one it needs right now. So we’ll vote for it. Because it can take us. Because it’s not our picture. It’s a sneaky guardian, an underestimated protector. A dark horse.
Sasha, as much as it is your decision where you draw the line, is it unreasonable to ask you to perhaps draw it in the same place for yourself as for us commenters? Says Zooey: ‘Sasha deleted the part of my comment saying that she should stop insulting people who disagree with her and only a few posts later she nearly calls somebody “asshole”.’
Sam, you say that Chris Terrio has won nothing from critics groups. In fact, Alliance of Women, Austin, Black, Florida, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Oklahoma, Online, Phoenix, San Diego and Southeastern critics groups have all rewarded Chris Terrio for Lincoln. That’s 11 wins out of 20 mentions for Terrio. 11 is also the same as Tony Kushner’s tally.
I think best supporting could go to Christoph Waltz, and best screenplay (adapted) could go to Silver Linings Playbook, i think that just because Lincoln and Life of Pi were nominated for the most awards – does not mean they will leave with the most. I think they will be handed out in close numbers, it will not be an awards sweep. This year has kind broken the mold a little anyways.