In an interview with Awards Daily‘s Shadan Larki, Clouds director Justin Baldoni opens up about bringing Zach Sobiech’s inspiring story to the screen, his favorite scenes in the film, and his own journey toward embracing vulnerability.
The Disney+ film Clouds tells the story of aspiring musician Zach Sobiech and his terminal osteosarcoma diagnosis.
Based on that description, you probably think Clouds is your typical teen-with-cancer melodrama. Clouds is not that movie. As director Justin Baldoni puts it, ‘This is not a sick kid movie, but a movie about life told from the perspective of somebody who’s sick.’ Baldoni was never interested in a by-the-numbers biopic, but rather, he wanted to honor his years-long close friendship with Zach and the Sobiech family with a story told through the prism of hope.
Yes, Clouds is a painful look at the cruelty of cancer, but it’s also an uplifting and often joyous film about friendship and family—with very good performances; and very, very good music.
Sobiech’s motto was ‘You don’t have to find out you’re dying to start living.’ That’s the legacy that Baldoni and Clouds so beautifully honor. So, no Clouds isn’t a ‘sick kid movie.’ It’s a movie about what it be truly vulnerable. And ultimately, what it means to be human.
Read more from Justin Baldoni below:
Awards Daily: Justin, you and I first spoke when Clouds was newly released. How has this experience unfolded for you? What kind of feedback have you received?
Justin Baldoni: Oh, it was really sweet. You know, it was hard releasing a movie during a pandemic. Originally, it was going to go to theatres, and it was hard not to have that in-person visceral, cathartic connection with the audience. But, what we found interesting was that it spread kind of the way it was supposed to. I mean, the Sunday after we released the movie, Zach hit number one on iTunes. I mean, it was a miracle. People were so touched by the film that they downloaded the original song. That was one of my dreams, and my dream came true. Zach hit number one twice after his death and all that money went to osteosarcoma. We got a 200,000-dollar donation from somebody who watched the movie—that’s what this is all about. We always say in the movie business that we’re not curing cancer. But why not, right?
AD: Absolutely! You’ve told me that one of your goals with Clouds was to visually elevate the film and present something new to the genre. I wanted to dig into that with you a little further—what are some of the scenes that, perhaps, tested you as a filmmaker and allowed you to establish that visual palette?
JB: Yeah, you know, a movie like this toe the line of being earnest and cheesy because we’ve seen so many of these types of movies done and we’ve seen so many of these movies fail. And what I was interested in was elevating a genre and taking a movie where I knew that critics would be from the very beginning ready to just tear it apart because they would go ‘Another sick kid movie.’ And at the end of the day, Clouds was not that. This is not a sick kid movie, but a movie about life told from the perspective of somebody who’s sick, but it’s not a cancer movie. If anything, cancer is the antagonist of the film. And visually, what was important to me. I wanted every scene, every shot to feel immersive. I wanted this to feel like we were there. And a big part of that for me was taking away the perfection. Every so often, when you’re making a movie like this, and you’re not making it on a low budget, you have some money to make things beautiful. You can make every shot beautiful; you can make it all perfect. But I really wanted to find the imperfections. [Cinematographer] Ben Kutchins and I spent a lot of time thinking about How do we make this movie something that young people can relate to? Because we know young people, especially, are tired of the perfection. They’re tired of the glitz and the glamor, and the gloss. They don’t want that. Zach didn’t want that. So we intentionally tried to muck up a lot of the shots and find ways to bring people in, and there were parts of it that felt kind of documentary. We did more traditional filmmaking in other parts and didn’t move the camera because it was so important and it was such an emotional moment. And there were parts that were really, really raw.
One of the things that challenged me was the opening scene. Early on in the development process of the script, I saw the whole opening as [one shot]. And I did that because I wanted us to be transported into Zach’s life, in his world, and not even think about it. And so we start the movie, and it’s one long continuous shot where Zach begins in the car and walks. It’s the whole behind-the-scenes of the concert backstage. You meet Sammy (Sabrina Carpenter). You meet Amy (Madison Iseman). He gets on stage. And then we get to meet Zach (Fin Argus) Not only is it beautiful, but it also serves the movie. I wanted people to feel what it was like to be Zach and be behind the scenes of a talent show. And we intentionally made it less pretty and had the camera moves not always perfect —that was important to me.
There were other areas that we wanted to try some fun stuff visually. There was a scene, in particular, one of my favorite scenes, which is right after Zach finds out he’s terminal and is having a moment alone and brushing his teeth. And on set, we built a fake mirror, and we brought in a double for Zach. We shaved his head, and we rehearsed them making the same movement. And so what happens is that you’re actually watching two people versus one person. You think you’re looking at Zach and his reflection, but you’re actually looking at a double and Fin who played Zach, and they’re mimicking each other in their toothbrushing. And as soon as they bend over to spit out the toothpaste, the camera pushes in on Fin, and then it becomes a close-up, and Fin is looking directly down the barrel of the lens. And you see him looking at himself in the mirror. He’s really looking at us, and he’s trying to put on a smile to get himself ready for the day. And I wanted him to look directly into the eyes of the audience and break the fourth wall. Because we’ve all had this moment. Zach, at that moment, is all of us. The difference is most of us have never had to try to go to school, or to work, or to a family function, or out in the world after just having found out they’re dying. But we’ve all had to overcome that moment of depression, or self-doubt, or feeling less than, or not enough, and put on a smile for the rest of the world. And I wanted the audience to be let in, in a deeply intimate, personal way and into that moment in Zach’s life. And that was an example of where a camera trick serves the purpose of the story. I’m never going to do a camera trick just for fun. It’s got to elevate the scene and bring us closer to Zach. And that was really, really important to me— to have that moment where it’s no cuts. And there we are. We’re here and Zach is looking right at us. And in that moment, we are Zach and he is us. That’s one of my favorite visual scenes of the whole show.
AD: Bringing Clouds to the screen has been a five-and-a-half-year process. How has your relationship to the project has shifted over the years? Especially now that it’s out in the world?
JB: It will always be one of the most meaningful, if not the most meaningful thing I’ve ever done. You know, if anything, looking back—we recently put up a nine-part ‘Making of’ special on Disney+. It’s in the extra section—there are nine, ten-minute episodes of how we made the movie and the stories behind it—just looking back at that, looking at the magic and the experience. I know Disney is pushing us, and we’d love to be recognized by the Emmys, but at the same time, the truth is that we’ve already won, there’s no award that we could ever get that would mean as much as the fact that you’ve touched lives, that people are still here because they saw Zach’s story— because they saw Clouds. They saw themselves in Zach, and the movie brought people hope and comfort during a time when, not just in America, but around the world, we were collectively suffering because of the pandemic. To know that we’ve raised money to end osteosarcoma and contributed to research with Zach’s music and with our movie. Clouds will remain forever one of these special moments in my career and the career of our studio— Wayfarer Studios. Clouds is the first film that we financed. I’m just grateful, and I’m just so happy that so many people watched it. I mean, the fact that it became a viral challenge on TikTok and people were watching the movie and trying not to cry and finding themselves not just touched but inspired. It was an incredible experience.
AD: You know, Justin, one of the things that struck me when I watched the movie and in speaking with you, is your vulnerability and the vulnerability that you were able to express within the film. Clouds isn’t manipulating our emotions to make us cry; we cried because it all felt so real. And you just released your first book [Man Enough: Undefining My Masculinity], which is, in part, about allowing yourself to be more vulnerable. So, I’m wondering if you could tie that all together for me in how you’ve been able to be so open and honest in your life, about this project that has meant so much to you.
JB: You know, at the end of my book, I thank Zach as well. Zach’s in my acknowledgments, as is Christopher Aiff who was another young man who became a dear friend of mine before he passed. Zach represented the idea behind Man Enough. He was only 18 when he died, but he was really open and honest about his struggles. And he saw the good in everybody. And had deep, deep friendships with women and he respected women. And his mom was his best friend. When you’re dying, I think you have to practice vulnerability because that’s the very thing that keeps you around and keeps you sane, honestly. All of the things that make you a man in your life, when you find out that you have terminal cancer, go away because you suddenly don’t care about all of those things anymore. It’s about, ‘How do I live? How do I impact people?’ And Zach represents so much of that. Clouds, at its core, is about helping people take that journey from their head to their heart, which is really what I talk about in my book. We, so often in our lives, shut down emotionally because it’s too painful, the world is too painful, life can be so painful, but that’s not a solution; that’s not the answer to a happy life. I think that we have to allow ourselves to feel. The movies that I want to make as a filmmaker are helping people open themselves up again. It’s about helping people tap back into the parts of them that make them human, that maybe they’ve severed that connection a little bit for their own self-preservation. And, you know, I want to take them on a journey, an experience that helps them re-establish that connection between their head and their heart— to get back to the very thing that makes us human.
And we can find the oneness in each other; we can find our similarities versus our differences. And my book very much is that. Clouds is that. That’s a common theme, at least in all the stories I want to pose as an artist, whether as an author, as a filmmaker, or as a producer; I want to help people make that reconnection. And as men, from a very young age, we are taught to sever that connection for self-preservation—to live and to function in the dominant, power-hungry patriarchy. So that’s kind of the full-circle of it all— the books, the movies, everything is just about tapping into our humanity. And to recognize that we have one life and we got to live it. As Zach says, ‘You don’t have to find out you’re dying to start living.’
AD: And I’m curious, you have a background as an actor. How did that help you as a director to then guide your actors to these performances? What were those conversations like?
JB: I believe the key to brilliant performances is safety. I think that a lot of directors underestimate how hard it is to act, to show up, and to be vulnerable in front of crew members and cameras and go to deep, dark places over and over again. And for me, that work as a filmmaker starts in the casting process. It begins with showing the actors as I’m casting them, how I give direction; making them feel safe, reminding them that they are enough; that they were here for a reason; that I chose them for a reason; that they have a gift that; that they are loved and seen and safe. And that doesn’t start on set. That starts weeks and weeks before they ever get to set.
And, you know, being an actor for the last 17 years, I’ve been in a lot of situations where I wasn’t able to deliver a great performance because I didn’t feel like I was good enough. The people around me—the director, the producers, whoever it was, were not helping me feel safe. They were not making a safe environment where I felt comfortable to access parts of myself that I didn’t want to access. It’s hard to go to places you don’t want to go because as human beings we are designed to not to go there for our own sanity and for our own safety. It’s something that I will forever be working on and getting better at.
But it’s about safety. And letting the actors know that this is a collaboration. I always want what’s in their best interests. It’s about building trust so that they know that when I say, We’re moving on.’ it means we’re moving on because they were brilliant. I always try to cast actors that not only do I want to work with, but I want to be friends with. I think that’s a big part of it— I see my movies as extensions of my family and I want to create great experiences for my actors, and honestly, my crew as well because they’re also a natural part of the filmmaking process. It’s an exchange— I have to give to them in order for them to give it to me.
Money raised from purchasing Zach’s music will benefit the Zach Sobiech Osteosarcoma Fund which has raised upwards of 2.8 million dollars. Clouds is currently streaming on Disney+