The Oscar game is an elaborate charade, a game, a snapshot in time that lives, breathes, writhes, flows, evolves and ultimately finds itself stuck in hardening amber for all time, only to be picked up years later and looked at with bemusement. Whether the BAFTA or the AMPAS believed that The Dark Knight is “best picture material” or not, cannot and will not change the inescapable truth that it is better than most of the other films released this year. That landed it at number 2, behind only Wall-E, on MCN’s collection of 100 top ten lists.
Duality is threaded so deeply throughout the film, beginning with the idea of what makes a superhero villain anyway – how they became rotten enough to “just want to see the world burn.” The Joker provokes people to reveal their darker sides, to succumb to the necessary evil that tugs at every one us.
Does it make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside for the love of humanity? No. Does it make you ache with longing or sob like a baby? No. Is it a meditation on life and death? Not in any direct way. What The Dark Knight is, though, is plenty. What it is great filmmaking. Bob Dylan writes that you can “feel the master’s hand in every leaf that trembles, in every grain of sand.” In a good film, you can feel the master’s hand in every frame. Christopher Nolan has delivered one of those films that, if you see it enough times, you can see what a masterful achievement it really is. Perhaps one viewing, though, can’t quite cut it. It is in the details. There aren’t many working directors who could have pulled lifted this behemoth off the ground.
Christopher Nolan never set out to make an Oscar movie, just like Steven Spielberg never planned to make his shark movie and Oscar movie – probably Martin Scorsese never thought his Boston gangster movie, a remake, would be an Oscar movie. The Oscars are at their best when they honor films that weren’t designed to win Oscars but rather were designed to be good movies.
Scott Foundas wrote this about Nolan:
In making the transition from low-budget independent films to studio tentpole projects, Nolan (who co- authored The Dark Knight with his brother, Jonathan), has sacrificed none of his abiding obsessions. Like the amnesiac amateur detective who occupied the central role in Nolan’s Möbius-strip sophomore feature, Memento, the Bruce Wayne of Dark Knight is increasingly gripped by an existential crisis, wondering whether he is the hero or the villain of his own story. And like the rival illusionists of Nolan’s 2006 film The Prestige, the longer Batman and the Joker engage in their battle of wills—the one confident in the inherent goodness of mankind, the other equally certain that man is but a savage beast—the more the distance collapses between them. Triangulating their position is D.A. Harvey Dent (played with gleaming, Kennedy-esque righteousness by Aaron Eckhart).
That makes The Dark Knight sound like heavy stuff—and it is. But I should add that Nolan also delivers the kick-ass goods, from an opening bank heist à la Michael Mann to a climactic episode of vehicular mayhem à la William Friedkin. So The Dark Knight will give your adrenal glands their desired workout, but it will occupy your mind, too, and even lead it down some dim alleyways where most Hollywood movies fear to tread. By the end of this second installment in that rare franchise one hopes won’t end anytime soon, Batman seems to have less in common with his superhero brethren than with those old frontiersmen of movies past. Like The Searchers‘ Ethan Edwards and High Noon’s Will Kane, he’s left to ride off into the darkness, pondering the uncertain destiny of principled men in an unprincipled world—as are we.
The better the movie, the more deserved the Oscar attention. But make no mistake about it, not being honored for an Oscar will have absolutely no lasting impact on the Dark Knight’s legacy. In fact, as was the case with No Country and The Departed, frankly the Oscars need these good movies much more than the movies need the Oscars.
If The Dark Knight is, in fact, nominated, it will follow in the footsteps of masterful genre films like The Exorcist, Jaws, and The Silence of the Lambs, and The Godfather I and II.
No matter what the Academy eventually decides, and they could opt out this time around, there is no mistaking the deep and lasting impact of this film. Said Ebert, “In his two Batman movies, Nolan has freed the character to be a canvas for a broader scope of human emotion. For Bruce Wayne is a deeply troubled man, let there be no doubt, and if ever in exile from his heroic role, it would not surprise me what he finds himself capable of doing.”
And then there’s the Joker. Writes Dargis:
No matter how cynical you feel about Hollywood, it is hard not to fall for a film that makes room for a shot of the Joker leaning out the window of a stolen police car and laughing into the wind, the city’s colored lights gleaming behind him like jewels. He’s just a clown in black velvet, but he’s also some kind of masterpiece.
Even if you aren’t inclined to the film, you can’t help but stand back and admire the one thing about it everyone agrees on. One bravura performance has driven many a mediocre film to the Best Picture race. Ledger’s is the most talked about performance of the year, right alongside Mickey Rourke and Sean Penn. He’s in the supporting category but he’s owning this year and with him, his film should be rightly honored.
Why am I writing this now? Partly because the commenters who are saying “no way will this film be nominated,” or “it has to be a good movie to get nominated.” I’m also writing it because looking back at Globes and BAFTA history, it is likely to follow that the Academy, in all of their infinite wisdom, will overlook this film this time around. No one thought they would snub Dreamgirls the way did, but they most certainly did. So no one should be all that surprised if The Dark Knight is left off the list. The Academy will be echoing the Joker’s words back at us, “it’s not about money. It’s about…sending a message.” It will be a message we get loud and clear. And it ain’t going to be pretty.
The Dark Knight, if nominated will probably become the first film to get the PGA and DGA nods, but lose the Globe nod, the SAG ensemble nod and the BAFTA nod but still go on to be nominated for an Oscar.
278 Responses for "Best Pic: Sweating the Dark Knight"
I understand the idea you want to pass, but you could write the same thing for WALL-E, and I think it would be far more deserving of the nomination you wish Dark Knight to get.
Praise the film all you want, but comments like “cannot and will not change the inescapable truth that it is better than most of the other films released this year” is an opinion passed off as an utter absolute, and it is not so for many people, including me.
And you know the thing about chaos?
Its fair.
The Oscars are stupider than Judas if they fail to nominate this exceptional film!!!!!
Amen (esp. the third paragraph).
The thing is, I just highly doubt the five Best Picture nominees will be the boring list we’ve heard so many times this year (Slumdog, Milk, Frost/Nixon, Dark Knight, and Benjamin Button). But I don’t know which movie to drop off of this list. Dark Knight’s SAG snub makes me likely to take it off the list, because it shows that even if they loved the movie, they still don’t see its cast as a great cast, and I can see many voters loving the movie, but thinking that it is not a Best Picture movie. PGA loves it because it makes money, and DGA shows that directors will be behind this movie, but I don’t think they will put it on number one or two, though. Dreamgirls was snubbed despite having all the guild support it had, but it wasn’t as loved by audiences and as praised by critics as Dark Knight, so the comparison isn’t all that valid.
Sasha my question is this:
For the past month and a half, I can not recall once hearing serious chatter about Gran Torino or The Reader having a chance at Best Picture up until Sunday.
Then suddenly TDK gets snubbed by BAFTA and everyone is tryin to jump off the bandwagon and light a match to it.
I have read every post on here, In Contention, TheEnvelope and anywhere else I find interesting articles and I have heard nothing to support these claims that have been made in the last day or so. If there was serious chatter going on about these films taking its place and/or TDK not having as much support as thought, why haven’t we heard this from any Oscar columnist in the last month (short of The Carpetbagger who has had his doubts)?
Ryan Hoffman, make no mistake: it is Wall-E the movie with the best chance get a Best Pic nod after the five everyone talks about. Then Doubt. Then Gran Torino/The Reader.
I agree with “The Natural” in that you are being a bit narrow-minded. I know plenty of people who found The Dark Knight very flawed, with severe script problems, a terrible performance by Bale and confusing. Stating that “the inescapable truth that it is better than most of the other films released this year” is taking it a bit too far.
It may be better than most of the other films released this year to some (many if you want) but I think comments like this take away a certain level of integrity from art, which, in the end is subjective.
Well I’m just going to come out and say it: “The Dark Knight” is a better film than ‘frontrunners’ “Slumdog Millionaire”, “Milk”, “Frost/Nixon” and “Doubt”.
Not that they’re bad, far from it actually, but “TDK” is simply superior.
There.
Despite my own reservations about the film (as Sasha yelled at me earlier about), I just cannot fathom a Best Picture list without it. Sometimes the Oscars just have to give it up to something that is as beloved by the audience as this is – i.e. Titanic (another flawed film, but had everything else going for it).
I cannot bring myself to like this film more than I do (a solid B on my review) but I also cannot bring myself to imagine a Best Picture lineup without it. It would just feel like the Academy officially lost its damn mind. And I honestly and truly hope they don’t pit Wall-E and TDK against each other as the popularity contest. You know, sometimes, the audience DOES get it right.
In conclusion (ha ha), I just don’t want to see Frost/Nixon on this list. Is that so wrong?
If TDK gets a PGA nomination, or a DGA nomination, nobody panicks. Because it’s all part of the plan. But if it fails to get one, little old BAFTA nomination… WELL THEN EVERYONE LOSES THEIR MINDS!
RB: Putting Frost/Nixon up for centention is a travesty my dear…. simply not in the same breath as Milk, The Dark Knight, Slumdog Millionaire, and WALL-E.
The fifth slot that is really deserving would be The Wrestler. That’s about it. I would like to say the Reader but haven’t watched that one yet. (and come to think of it, that is the top 5 on MCN’s list!!!)
I lied. This is definitely my favorite shot of the film.
Good article, and very true, Dark Knight is the movie people will remember from this year, I think it will get many nominations, if it is snubbed the AA will lose a huge amount of credibility… heck, even if it is nominated and loses it will be another infamous brokeback mtn sore spot…
“The Oscars are at their best when they honor films that weren’t designed to win Oscars but rather were designed to be good movies.”
Sasha, I couldn’t agree with you more. That one sentence says it all. I get tired of watching obvious Oscar bait movies which don’t adequately entertain you because they’re loaded down with a cast of numerous Oscar winners and/or nominees; they star in dramas which are intentionally too serious.
However, such 2008 gems as Wall-E, TDK, and Slumdog Millionaire came out of nowhere and surprised a lot of moviegoers and critics with their passion for strong storytelling, the standard all filmmakers should strive for. Again, Sasha, thank you for your insight.
@ N8: LOL! Love it.
I’ve got one. AMPAS says:
“How about a magic trick? We’re gonna make a long-assumed Best Picture nominee… disappear!”
*WHAM!*
“Ta daaa! It’s… it’s gone!”
In other words, Oscar-watchers: if you all think you see the surprise snub coming, it ain’t the surprise snub, is it? Resist the groupthink. You are barking up the wrong tree.
At N8-
Brilliant.
I don’t care if people think the lineup of Slumdog Millionaire, TheCurious Case of Ben Button, Frost/Nixon, The Dark Knight, and Milk is boring. It’s just a right combination of freshness (Slumdog Millionaire), gravitas (Ben Button), populism (Dark Knight), political messaging (Milk), and traditional Oscar fare (Frost/Nixon). The only combo that feels more right is WALL-E in place of Frost/Nixon.
The most depressing thought is to see The Reader get nominated, perpetuating one of the biggest sterotypes people have about the Oscars (“Best way to get an Academy Award nomination? Make a holocaust film!”) Although if Winslet won for that it would make her Extras cameo 1000x more awesome than it already is.
Gentle Benji, true. Dark Knight is the safe snub for me. Milk is my surprise snub. It would get people mad and raise homophobic accusations.
Great piece, by the way. If The Dark Knight isn’t nominated, I will be disappointed, but I have no doubt that the impact of the film will supersede any of the films nominated for an Oscar this year.
I think the only safe nominee is “Slumdog.”
Here’s what I think could keep out the other four assumed nominees:
“Ben Button” – jury mixed, shutout at Globes, no locks for acting nomination
“Milk” – homophobia, lack of Globes noms or wins
“Frost/Nixon” – no big wins for anything
“The Dark Knight” – lack of support from Globes, SAG, BAFTAS (although this is too late to have a huge impact)
@ Gentle Benj:
Oh, and by the way, Weinstein’s Oscar for “The Reader”, it wasn’t cheap. He aughta know, he bought it.
“Wall-E” on the other hand, might be THE most overrated film of 2008, just like “The Incredibles” in 2004 and “Ratatouille” in 2007. It was good and I did like it, but from that to even consider putting it in the Best Picture category? It’s a far cry.
I’ve said this before, but I genuinely don’t think that Pixar has made a truly great film since “Finding Nemo”, but out of the ones that followed, “Wall-E” is the best.
TDK may have some flaws but I think Sasha has done a wonderful job detailing why it is a great film. Nolan has turned the film’s genre on its head in an intelligent, probing and most of all novel manner — while along the way providing plenty of awe-inspiring entertainment even if it was a little too loud at times for my sensitive ears.
1. Why do some people feel the need to mention that The Dark Knight is a “very flawed movie” as some sort of negative? Hello, every film is “very flawed”. Films being flawed is nothing new, and TDK is no more flawed than some of the “best” from cinema’s past. You can attribute this statement to practically every movie ever produced. But for some reason, TDK has to take it the hardest out of all of them. Why that is, I have no idea. But if you’re going to tear TDK apart for being “very flawd”, you might as well be fair and get started on The Godfather as well.
2. Oscar ballots were due this past monday, before the BAFTA nominations were announced, so that has no effect on TDK’s Oscar chances. The Golden Globes? Pfft, okay lets be serious here, the Globes are a nothing award, so whether or not they nominated TDK or not isn’t really all that important.
TDK has secured top nominations with every Guild accept SAG, and that’s mainly because Doubt is much more of an acting driven film than TDK; where TDK has one great performance, Doubt has four. While TDK has so much going for it, Doubt is as far as it is right now because of those performances.
3. I do firmly believe that if TDK were to be ignored at this stage, then a backlash would occure. Except for Wall*E, which is tied to the Best Animated feature category so it has no chance of taking Frost/Nixon’s undeserved spot, no other film in the runnig for Best Picture has been fully praised as a whole as TDK has been. I’d say a nomination is firmly expected at this point, and anything else would be just another huge disappointment.
Sasha you seem to be the only prognosticator who is doubting The Dark Knight’s chances at an Oscar nomination. What other film are they going to nominate? The Reader? Other than a couple of Golden Globe nominations there really isn’t anything going for it. Oscar ballots have already been mailed so the snub for The Dark Knight has done nothing. What did you expect? The Reader is a British film so why not honor it over a “popcorn” film from the United States? The Reader did not get any love from the PGA or the DGA. Wall-E has a much better chance to unseat TDK than The Reader does.
The Godfather is not very flawed.
Because “The Dark Knight” is flawed to the point where it actually hinders the continuity and flow of the movie… I don’t know about you, but I can find nary a flaw in “The Godfather.” If there was ever a seamless, flawless movie, it’s that one. “The Dark Knight” is a bit of a jumbled mess.
Here’s what I think it comes down to:
If THE DARK KNIGHT is not nominated, it will have been replaced by WALL-E.
If the Academy fails to nominate either of these movies, then it will be a collective “FUCK OFF!” to the general public. And can the Academy afford to do that?
I agree with “Anonymous” that Slumdog is the only lock for a BPnomination… any of the four contenders (and their directors) could fall out of contention.
Will Revolutionary Road finally come into play? How strong is The Wrestler? Are Doubt, Gran Torino and The Reader wildcards? TDK vs Wall-E, what is the populist pick? I’m so amped.
The Natural, I was speaking objectively, not subjectively. You may not see the flaws, but oh yes, they are there. Point is, all films have these problems. TDK is no more flawed than it’s competitors in Milk and Slumdog.
I honestly do believe that TDK is getting a lot of this flack because it was supposed to be a mear popcorn flick that got elivated to a much higher status. Honestly, that’s a bit unfair.
The Dark Knight is an epic masterpiece that should be honored by the Academy . It is easily the best film of 2008 by far . Heath Ledger gave an extraordinary preformance that will be forever remembered in history. the film touch on very serious issues that reflect many of the current event happining in the world today . Also it showed that just because it a superhero film, doesn’t mean it has to be campy. TDK was a serious film. I hope the Academy sees that .
Man, there sure are lots of “TDK” haters here… Hey N8, if nobody “panicks” when “TDK” gets PGA and DGA nominations it’s because everyone thinks it deserves it. Fucking moron…
As for “The Reader” and “Gran Torino”, they don’t even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as “Best Picture”.
Don’t forget its WGA nom! So clutch.
Also, TDK is in with AMPAS. I say it’s it’s even going to win for the reasons stated here by Sasha.
This article pretty much voices what most people have been thinking. There have been so many instances of the Academy proving themselves to be truly out of touch with reality and the audiences of the world. I think the main thing that creates a mental block for Academy members is that by nominating and awarding “prestigious and worthy” films, they are somehow preserving the credibility and reputation of the organization. Unfortunately, everyone else in the world thinks exactly the opposite. Even the most respected critics in the world have begun to voice a ton of dissent and disagree with the Academy’s usual choices. Rarely is the best reviewed film of the year the actual best picture winner. In fact, a lot of critics have come out and begun to criticize the academy for their poor choices. Yet, the AMPAS continues to make these idiotic and boring choices. In the minds of the old, jaded members of the academy, nominating The Dark Knight would “tarnish” their credibility, or something. Quite the opposite. Remember how low last year’s ratings were? Imagine how many people won’t be watching this year simply for the fact that there isn’t “Juno” there. I guarantee you that most of last year’s ratings were propelled by people watching simply to see if “Juno” won anything. What person in their right minds would actually say that “Slumdog Millionaire”, “The Curious Case of Benjamin Button”, “Milk”, “Frost/Nixon”, and “Gran Torino”/”The Reader/”Doubt” were the five best films of the year? Snubbing the film with the largest amount of box office return and support from audiences, critics, and industry officials in history since Titanic and Lord of the Rings would basically doom the show to ratings hell and simply once again prove that the academy is completely out of touch with reality. In the end though, 99% of people will remember The Dark Knight not only as the definitive film of 2008, but one of the definitive films of the decade.
How can they not nominate this film? Is it jealousy or something? It’s mystifying to me. It was the best film of the year. The beauty is in the repeated viewings of the film. It holds up every time. I can’t wait to see it on the IMAX screen next week.
@ Carlos:
Dude, totally misread me. I’m one of the folks “not panicking” when TDK was cleaning up with the guilds last week. I was just being cute. Don’t know how that makes me a hater, or a moron. Get your facts straight before you attack someone (they could be on your side).
“The Dark Knight, if nominated will probably become the first film to get the PGA and DGA nods, but lose the Globe nod, the SAG ensemble nod and the BAFTA nod but still go on to be nominated for an Oscar.”
I’ll admit i’m lazy, but does anyone know if this has happened to any other films? Didn’t Munich get the same treatment? I’m not sure.
Having finally seen TDK again after I saw it in theatres back in July, I’m convinced that its a fucking masterpiece.
Yes its a comic book, yes its about dudes who wear costumes, yes its a summer blockbuster…..why is it that at Oscar campaign time, normally smart and good-tasting people use stupid logic to explain why Film A and Film B can’t/shouldn’t win?
It’s a fucking presidential election, but for the movie world.
But TDK is something different. Every superhero movie is basically a glorified action movie, right?
Even those that try to tell their story as a Heroic Myth usually let all that fall aside in favor of an action climax of or whatever. Shit, even Nolan’s BATMAN BEGINS fell into that trap.
But not for TDK. With lots of action, I never truely felt TDK as an action movie, but a Drama which happens to have good action shit. Even that whole truck-assault sequence, when Ledger dares Bats to run him over, has a mythological/dramatic point to it.
You know, like Michael Mann’s classic HEAT, which Nolan claims was his inspiration for TDK.
So go ahead some of you, pick shit like SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE which years later no one will give a damn about, like CRASH.
TDK though will last for a genre as the gold-standard, for which everything before and after will be compared to. If Ric Flair/Ricky Steamboat is the best Pro Wrestling match series in history, Bill Clinton is the slickest Executive Pimp ever, THE GODFATHER as the greatest American movie not named CITIZEN KANE, you name it.
I can see how folks think that TDK is obviously better than some of the other possible BP nominees, but keep in mind that many do not agree. I would say that Milk was far more enjoyable, had a better script, had no weak performances, and did not seem a full 45+ minutes too long, so on those criteria it is better, and I also subjectively think that it is a better movie.
I would be glad if TDK is nominated for best pic, because it shows a willingness to embrace genre movies/movies that were not explicitly made to win awards, but it has some serious flaws, and I did not feel the power and complexity that many others did, and think it is on a par with ‘Slumdog’ – both are engaging, but have serious flaws.
Plus, I really hate the fact that people who point out any criticism of the movie, or think that it is not the year’s best, are labelled as TDK haters.
I haven’t gotten the chance to see it in IMAX. can someone tell me if it will be worth the ticket price? I’m wondering wether to see it in that format next week.
“Christopher Nolan never set out to make an Oscar movie”
That’s why I want it nominated for Best Picture as well. It truly does outshine the Oscar bait flicks this year, including Button, Milk, and definitely Frost/Nixon. They were all screaming for Oscars, with good to average films, and they’re still gonna get them.
I don’t really see TDK’s flaws at all. What about the script is so confusing? People can’t see the logic in Batman taking the blame for Dent’s murders? That’s easy, it probably happens all the time and we don’t know it. It’s definitely believable. Besides, I can see characters (like Mike Engel) in “The Third Batman” flick, questioning Batman’s guilt; I mean, they would continue the story to a certain degree after all; it’s not an entirely closed ending.
I think people just want to backlash it for its popularity, and want to nitpick.
btw- off the top of my head, one flaw I remember in Godfather is the horribly phantom punches that Caan’s character throws to his Brother in Law while “giving him a beating.” I still love that movie, and do think it’s a classic, so I’m not really nit picking it either; but again, no film is perfect.
And when a film isn’t reaching for Best Picture perfection at the out-set, yet becomes that great in the process, then it should at least get some recognition.
But you know, all this arguing, debating, worrying, etc. The real enemy in all of this is Frost/Nixon!!!!
Finally, I love Wall*E as well, and would like it to be a Best Pic nominee as well…but not at the expense of Dark Knight getting snubbed, The Dark Knight is a more exceptional film within the Comic Book/action genre, then Wall*E is in animated films.
Rebecca – The difference between SLUMDOG and TDK is that some people who seem to back SLUMDOG, seem to do it because they think SLUMDOG makes them feel better about themselves about poverty or whatever sillyness. Like how CRASH years ago, its people feeling guilty over racism or something.
But hey, your opinion is your opinion, and it sounds fair. I think at least I want TDK nominated for Picture/Director, you know a ticket to the big dance. Shit imagine if both Nolan and Fincher got nominated.
Two of my favorite directors in competition? AWESOME. But I’ll be pissed if Danny I DIRECTED THE BEACH Boyle beats them. That’s just wrong on so many fundamental levels.
Shit, imagine the director of FIGHT CLUB winning. That would make a 2nd winner who’s helmed a picture from the ALIEN franchise.*
*=The previous, obviously, was James Cameron.
Rebecca,
They only label them TDK Haters, because they’re already being labeled fanboys, which isn’t entirely true neither.
Plus, even though I think that TDK was better then Milk; I still think that both should be in the Best Picture category at least.
Mr. Big, a similar situation (minus the SAG Ensemble snub) occurred last year with “Into the Wild”. That film was nominated for every top prize Guild Award under the sun, and only managed to get two oscar nominations. I think that’s the kind of scenario a lot of people, myself included, fear most at this point.
I completely agree with Why So Serious RRA?. The Academy is all about who campaigns the loudest and most at this point. It’s so incredibly political at this point that credibility is almost completely gone. Why do you think Tim Burton has never gotten a single oscar nomination for Best Director, despite creating great works of cinema like “Ed Wood”, “Big Fish”, and “Sweeney Todd”? He doesn’t conform to the Academy and what they want him to do. A lot of the nomination process involves back-scratching these days. Big name directors and actors get nominated and sometimes win solely on the basis of their names and reputations. Clint Eastwood, Meryl Streep, etc etc. Most people are betting on Sean Penn winning the oscar at this point simply because he’s a safer PR choice than Mickey Rourke.
I mean, let’s wind the clocks back a couple of years. These… hobbits (Lord of the Rings) and gangsters (The Departed) all won best picture…..I mean… what happened AMPAS? Did.. your balls drop off?
Steve,
The Dark Knight in IMAX is definitely worth the price. It’s simply incredible in IMAX.
William,
Fair enough, and I don’t think that TDK supporters are necessarily just ‘fanboys.’ I love talking about movies, especially with those who have different opinions, so I’m glad to read/hear about those who genuinely love TDK. To be honest, now that I think about it, I thought Diego Luna’s character/performance was pretty weak and nonsensical in ‘Milk.’
And, in all seriousness (to you and ‘why so serious RRA’), thanks for engaging with my opinions without getting into a flamewar about how I’m stupid/insane/whatever b/c I don’t have the same opinions – I haven’t seen that respect on other websites.
Why so serious RRA,
I agree that ‘Slumdog Millionaire’ has something going for it b/c of the privileged folk taking a liking to movies that make them feel better about ‘caring’ about ‘issues’ – and I have not heard it put quite that way before.
Sorry about the double post, I just noticed the edit function.
Rebecca – You welcome. Anyone for the most part can have their opinion as long as they use smarts behind it.
I mean if a movie fails for you, well what can I say to that? Either you care about what happens in a film, or you don’t.
What I do despise greatly is, as I said earlier, people using bullshit retarded logic.
The argumentation against TDK, or the annoying ones I’ve heard repeatedly, basically are:
(1) “It can’t compete for Oscar because its too popular.”
(2) “Its a superhero movie, haven’t we gotten enough of them?”*
(3) “We can’t take seriously a friggin action movie!”
(4) “SLUMDOG and MILK are serious and mean something!”**
Notice a pattern? Prejudice against TDK because its an actioneer.
It’s that bullshit why STAR WARS lost to ANNIE HALL in 1977. Now if HALL won because many voters thought it was the better film (and yes, its indeed arguable) then fine, but that election always carried a taint of people refusing to honor a popcorn action movie.
Shit in 1981, of the leading contenders including ON GOLDEN POND and REDS and CHARIOTS OF FIRE, which one is fondly remembered as a masterpiece-classic, a gold standard of cinema?
Why RAIDERS OF THE LOST ARK, so of course it lost.
*=That one especially is STUPID. With that logic, aren’t biopics and war dramas to be disqualified too?
**=Now MILK, I think its a good opportunity to tell a very topical history lesson of a real-life hero. Not seen it myself, so maybe its as good or not as THE DARK KNIGHT. But please, don’t pick MILK over TDK simply because one is “serious.”
Why so Serious,
On your specific points, 1-4, I definitely agree – and with the general point that popular/action movies tend to get the shaft. I mean, popular movies that are well-loved have often been in the mix for BP noms, not to mention wins – just look at ‘Titanic,’ ‘Lord of the Rings’ or ‘Braveheart,’ even non-winners like ‘Juno’, ‘Moulin Rouge’, and ‘Jerry Maguire.’ Also, I can’t be the only one to think that it is not a coincidence that ‘The Departed’ and ‘No Country for Old Men’ were some of their respective director’s most popular works at the box office.
As for superhero movies, I think we’ve had enough of badones, like ‘Transformers’ or ‘Fantastic Four’ – but that does not include Nolan’s ‘Batman’ movies, or ‘Iron Man.’ Same with action movies, and additionally – aren’t ‘Titanic’, ‘LOTR’ and ‘Braveheart’ really action movies, with a lot of extra stuff (romance, history, etc.) added to beef up the most compelling scenes, which are action scenes? Maybe you have to disguise your action movie as something else.
Lastly, I don’t think ‘Slumdog’ has much meaning, but I do think ‘Milk’ does – but ‘Milk’ is also incredibly enjoyable, often lighthearted, and above all, hopeful. I would hate to see it left out for more lukewarm, awards-bait movies like ‘Frost/Nixon’ or ‘Doubt,’ but would get over it if it meant that both ‘TDK’ and ‘Wall-E’ got BP noms.
@N8:
If you’re not one of the ‘panickers’ then sorry, but your apparent agreeing with Gentle Benj, who did bash the film, made it look otherwise.
@Why so Serious RRA?:
People like you, who say plainly idiotic things like ‘Danny I DIRECTED THE BEACH Boyle’ are the ones that make other people like me, who actually appreciate “TDK” for being the great film it is, be labeled as ‘fanboys’. Yes, he directed that awful piece of shit. That’s ONE terrible film in an otherwise great track record: he also directed the fantastic “Trainspotting”, “28 Days Later”, “Millions” and “Sunshine”, which are all becoming modern classics. Asshole.
@Rebecca:
Not everyone is as respectful as you’re trying to be. If you (dare) read back some of the comments, you’ll see many are pretty nasty. These are the real haters, so I don’t know why you consider yourself alluded.
Plus, when I say “TDK” was better than those films, including “Milk”, I just assume everyone is smart enough to know that the fact that it is MY opinion is implicit.
Finally, and just for the record because it seems many think people have to be either pro”TDK” or pro-”Slumdog”, I DO think the latest is a great film, one of the best of 2008, that may even deserve a Best Picture Oscar nomination, but I think “TDK” is even better.
On the other hand, I think Danny Boyle should win Best Director.
’nuff said.
Shit, imagine the director of FIGHT CLUB winning.
If Fincher does win one someday, I’ll thank you not to remind me he directed THAT.
That would make a 2nd winner who’s helmed a picture from the ALIEN franchise.
Leaving Ridley Scott and Jean-Pierre Jeunet: the two ALIEN directors I actually like. Sigh.
Okay, universe, make THIS happen: Ness and Nottingham get moved up to 2009. They both turn out to be really great, along with Micmacs à tire-larigot (whatever that is) and Avatar (somehow). Then, we get an ALIEN franchise reunion in Best Director! Okay?
The fifth slot can go to… um… Paul Anderson. No, not the good one. The AVP one. P.W.S.A. For, um, Spy Hunter.
You know what? Never mind.
Carlos. Are you serious. Bash the film? No. N8 made a reference to dialogue from the movie, and I did the same. And the long-assumed Best Picture nominee that I expect to “disappear” is not TDK.
Well I’ve heard good thing about MILK, and Van SAnt has done some good shit, so yeah Rebecca I want to see it, and hopefully if it is indeed worthy, I’ll pimp it too for Oscars.
Now FROST/NIXON had a pretty good script, and a good cast….but its Opie that worries me. Uneven, and really can he make it a winner outside of the “Oscar Bait” label its already been slapped with?
As for the bad comic book movies, after I’ve seen some real losers like FANTASTIC FOUR or DAREDEVIL or Ang Lee’s HULK or SPIDER-MAN 3, I know what you mean totally. As the old maxim goes, good movies are never too long, but bad movies are never too short.
And yes, you have a good point about BRAVEHEART/LOTR being actioneers disguised as “epics” or “historical dramas.” Maybe too with TITANIC, for that one shot of that poor dude who falls and hits that propeller seems like a joke more fitting for an action movie than say a “serious” romancer.
Carlos Balbás-Espín – It’s called sarcasm. Ever heard of it? Mate….why so serious?
Also, calling people an “Asshole” doesn’t make you a fanboy at all.
It just makes you an Asshole.
Gentle Benj – Yeah, I agree with you that Ridley Scott arguably should have gotten a win by now. Some say for BLADE RUNNER, but that movie in the original cut never had a chance. Maybe ALIEN, but because it was a horror movie* it got disqualified from consideration, but shit it was better than that KRAMER VS KRAMER sillyness. At least ALIEN got a roommate with APOCALYPSE NOW that year in the Wronged Department.
Maybe GLADIATOR or THELMA & LOUISE? I dont know if Ridley was #1 in either year, but I wonder how pissed he is still that he lost for GLADIATOR, but it won Best Picture? Whats it like to get rarely-fucked like that?
Now if KINGDOM OF HEAVEN had been released in its complete Director’s Cut, I would without hesitation have put it for serious consideration for 2005. I mean I need something to kick CRASH off the list, you know?
*=What, 11 years before SILENCE OF THE LAMBS broke that barrier?
@Why so Serious RRA?:
“Two of my favorite directors in competition? AWESOME. But I’ll be pissed if Danny I DIRECTED THE BEACH Boyle beats them. That’s just wrong on so many fundamental levels.”
Uhm, that doesn’t look like sarcasm at all. Looks like you were being, uhm, serious.
So, I stand by what I said: saying such an asshole-y thing makes you an asshole. And it does make us “TDK” supporters look like simple fanboys.
@Gentle Benj:
“And the long-assumed Best Picture nominee that I expect to “disappear” is not TDK.”
It isn’t? Well, then I guess I’m sorry for mistaking the fact that you (and N8) used lines from the film to faux-bash it for an actual bash.
“To be honest, now that I think about it, I thought Diego Luna’s character/performance was pretty weak and nonsensical in ‘Milk.’”
You know what, Rebecca? I have been following this awards season since July, and you are quite literally the first person I’ve ever seen mention Diego Luna’s performance. Like, at all. He is quite prominently a main characater in the trailer, but I always thought something was fishy whenever people would rattle off the names of the spectacular performances of Milk–Penn, Brolin, Hirsch, Franco–and yet Luna’s would be conspicuously absent. I mention this because I have not seen the film yet, so I had been wondering if there had been something less-than-stellar about his performance. And yet you don’t see people crucifying “Milk” for this particular…flaw…
Anyway, still have to see it, so I’ll judge for myself when the time comes.
“The Oscars are at their best when they honor films that weren’t designed to win Oscars but rather were designed to be good movies.”
A.Men. I’m really hoping that Academy members won’t be scared to go with their hearts and see beyond the face of genres. This was the year that blockbusters really stepped up their game, exploring new dimensions of film-making and quality entertainment that appealed to both the critics and the public; how rare is that? Meanwhile, the typical Oscar bait films this year played it safe and ended up being just that: typical and safe.
“I knew Eastwood wouldn’t go down without a fight, but this is different.
He crossed the line.”
P.s. Hans
Diego Luna made that movie a B+ instead of an A-
Hans – Luna’s character is definitely a flaw, and that could have been the character or the actor, but I think a really great actor/performance would have made it clear that the actor knew what was going on with the character, and still made the character a mystery. Of the supporting performances, I liked Hirsch much above the others, then Franco, and then Brolin – wouldn’t put Luna in a ‘best of’ list at all.
Ryan Hoffman – absolutely agree on A- to B+ based on Luna.
To N8 and Ryan Hoffman:
Brilliant. To the latter, I would also mention “The Reader” in addition to Eastwood.
If Slumdog, Milk, CCBB, and Frost/Nixon make the final cut for the Oscars, and TDK doesn’t get the fifth slot, I wouldn’t mind Gran Torino filling it in as much as, say, The Reader or Doubt. Gran Torino was a good film, one of the top 5 of last year in my opinion. Doubt, on the other hand, was often laughable (don’t get me wrong, the individual performances are incredible, but the film as a whole is not). The Reader is similarly not as great as its individual performances. The Dark Knight, on the contrary, is not simply the sum of its parts, but rather something entirely new, unexpected, and amazing (taken from Sergei Eisenstein’s theory of montage).
The Dark Knight needs to be included in the Best Picture category come Thursday.
Kkthx =)
Batman = Slumdog
Gordon = CCBB
Dent = The Dark Knight
Dent: “But BAFTAS chose me!”
Batman: “Because you were the best of us….”
=)
See, this is how crazy Batman’s made Awards Daily! If you want order in Awards Daily, Batman must be nominated for best pic. Oh, and if it doesn’t, people will die, starting tonight. I’m a man of my word
Carlos Balbás-Espín – Can you even read?
If you can, then you don’t have an excuse.
I was joshing about the whole I DIRECTED THE BEACH as a fucking joke.
Really, I’m sorry I offended you, I’m sorry I hurt your little feelings, and I’m sorry that I beat up on poor little THE BEACH. Also, I’m sorry for being sarcastic because hey, what’s more serious than yourself acting like a fanboy?
Dude sonnymoscoso it is:
You look nervous, is it the oSCARS???
As in you know: This
http://data.tumblr.com/H75UfmNS4iqw87mbp8owWozfo1_400.jpg
Update: And then he goes and deletes it lol.
Random thought: it is a very phallically oriented Oscar race this year, isn’t it? The Dark Knight’s lone female gets killed off halfway through. Milk is about the lives of gay men. Frost/Nixon, well. Curious Case and Slumdog between them have two or three significant women, with the leads being mere romantic devices.
Just cuz I’m bored:
No Country for Old Men – male driven
There Will Be Blood – male driven
Michael Clayton – all around
Atonement – all around
Juno – all around, but with a strong female head
The Departed – male driven
The Queen – female driven
Babel – all around
Letters from Iwo Jima – male driven
Little Miss Sunshine – arguably female driven
Why do I care? I dunno. I have a general chem quiz tomorrow and I have no desire for sleep.
If most voters return their ballots a week or so after receiving, the BAFTA snub will have no effect. Since TDK got PGA and DGA and a slew of other guild around the time the voters were voting, we can be optimistic.
However as Sasha always says, we do not know anything at this point. I still remember a lot of people predicting a ‘Dreamgirls’ snub, so nothing is really a surprise is it?
I am fully expecting a snub, and then a huge backlash. If it isn’t nominated it will prove the Academy is far to out of touch with the public and critics to be relevant.
Hans i’m assuming u meant slumdog and button, but its an interesting point to discuss and if one is to think that the females may not be voting for TDK or F/N and some Milk nearly as much, then what are they voting for?
Being a 21 yr old white male i have no idea lol but I would assume Doubt, Slumdog, Button, Rev Road and Rachel Getting Married possibly.
@Michael
The BAFTA snub has absolutely no effect on voters since ballots were due on Monday the 12th, however it could have an effect on it winning if it does get nominated.
The thought process is that BAFTA and the Academy have some member overlap and this may be a sign of things to come, though i disagree with this take.
I found this comment from Michael in response to The Envelope’s article “BAFTAs: Is ‘The Dark Knight’ in trouble?”
Michael says, in the comment section,
“What the hell does a movie have to do to garner a best picture nomination? The Dark Knight, with the re-release, will end up grossing over a billion dollars, it is the second highest rated movie of the year among the critics, it has captured the imagination of pop-culture, it has redefined and transcended the genre, and it boasts one of the best performances in years – even better than all the contenders for best actor this year. What else does a movie need to do to be considered “BEST PICTURE????”
Of course, his point on Ledger’s performance beating all of the potential Best Actor nominees’ is arguable, but he pretty much summed up why many of us think TDK deserves the nomination. And the billion dollars shouldn’t automatically warrant a nomination, or even consideration, but then how did Titanic get the nomination and win?
Well said, Michael.
I like to think the BAFTAS won’t have an effect as Micheal above pointed out. And the Globes because…it’s the Globes.
The Dark Knight rightfully deserves it’s spot among the top of the year. I would say it’s better than Slumdog Millionaire and maybe Frost/Nixon. It would be a huge letdown and shame on AMPAS if The Dark Knight is snubbed. I won’t mind it not winning (I think Milk is more deserving) but it deserves a nom.
One more thing:
Here’s my top 7 of 2008:
1) “Synecdoche, New York”
2) “Revolutionary Road”
3) “The Curious Case of Benjamin Button”
4) “The Dark Knight”
5) “The Wrestler”
6) “Slumdog Millionaire”
7) “Milk”
Of course, I would LOVE for my top 5 to be the actual 5 Best Picture Oscar nominees for this year but I know that “Synecdoche, New York” doesn’t have a chance in hell. Which is truly a shame because it’s a brilliant masterpiece and I believe it’s one of those films that people will recognize as such over time, just like Kubrick’s “2001″. I also think that, just like “2001″, it might be nominated for Screenplay, and I really, really, really hope so.
“The Wrestler” has been mentioned as a ‘dark horse’, but it’s still a long shot.
Then there’s “Revolutionary Road”, another cinematic masterpiece (not-so-coincidentally based on a literary masterpiece) that hasn’t been getting the love it deserves from critics and other groups. It’s also been mentioned as a possible nominee and despite all the snubs, I still have my fingers crossed.
If it doesn’t get the BP nomination, it’ll become one of the “recognized over time” too, like Sasha said in an earlier post.
So since “S,NY” is not going to be nominated, that leaves room for “Slumdog Millionaire” which is my number 6. Another spot vacated by any of the others being left out (which I hope isn’t “RR”) would leave an opening for “Milk”.
As for the other ‘contenders’, I think “Frost/Nixon” and “Doubt” are both very good but not great like the ones I mentioned. “Gran Torino” is also a good movie, but lesser than these last two. And “The Reader” is uneven.
# 1 is right on. Blah blah blah. How many times do you have to write this same thing. Wall-E is far more deserving.
Random thought: it is a very phallically oriented Oscar race this year, isn’t it? The Dark Knight’s lone female gets killed off halfway through. Milk is about the lives of gay men. Frost/Nixon, well. Curious Case and Slumdog between them have two or three significant women, with the leads being mere romantic devices.
Oh, don’t get me started on CCoBB’s treatment of Daisy.
**BENJAMIN BUTTON SPOILER**
Daisy: I am a special snowflake, for I am a world-class ballerina!
Eric Roth: Yes. And you also get to be the love interest for Benjamin, who ages backwards and is therefore automatically fascinating.
Daisy: No. Not interested. I am having too much fun being an awesome dancer.
Eric Roth: Fine. I’ll break your fucking leg. How you like me now?!
Daisy: NOOO! What makes me a special snowflake now?!
Eric Roth: Now you’re Captain Backwards’s concubine. Special-by-association is special enough for you.
Carlos Balbás-Espín – ATTABOY!
If you wrote more intelligent postings like that on a regular basis, I wouldn’t have called you an Asshole.
Good job, but keep it up.
@Why so Serious RRA?:
Why don’t you just fucking man up and stand up by what you said?
Also, how much of an idiot are you to not realize that I wasn’t referring only to your stupid “I directed ‘The Beach’” quote but the fact that you actually DO think Boyle shouldn’t win because he directed ‘The Beach’? Which by the way, “if you can read”, you should know I said is an awful piece of shit.
Fanboy asshole…
EDIT: Oops, looks like you were ready to let things go but I was still mad because of your last post… xD!!!
To the above poster, as much as you and a number of others think WALL-E is more deserving of the nomination, there are just as many people who think that The Dark Knight is more deserving of the nomination. I personally am getting sick of this WALL-E vs. The Dark Knight debate. Its pointless. The two films are SO different that comparing the two is like apples and oranges.
.
Gentle Benj – hehe hilarious man! LOL
sorry, not you Carlos, the poster named WALL-E
Kevin,
What the hell do you think awards are about other than comparing movies. TDK and Wall-E are comparable because they are both mainstream movies that were very well reviewed and had good/great box office, but are of a genre that would normally eliminate them from oscar consideration.
Carlos Balbás-Espín – My friend, here is some help for you from the Random House dictionary:
JOKE /dʒoʊk/
noun, verb, joked, jok⋅ing.
–noun 1. something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him.
2. something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke.
3. a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke.
4. something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class.
5. practical joke.
–verb (used without object) 6. to speak or act in a playful or merry way: He was always joking with us.
7. to say something in fun or teasing rather than in earnest; be facetious: He didn’t really mean it, he was only joking. –verb (used with object)
8. to subject to jokes; make fun of; tease.
9. to obtain by joking: The comedian joked coins from the audience.
Dead Man’s Chest made $1 Billion…….it’ll be lone anomaly (redundant?) once TDK joines the $1 Billion Club and gets the BP nod. A distant hope in my mind still wishfully wonders if it can pull of what the other two billionaire films managed to, and that’s an 11-oscar sweep.
Perhaps?
Picture
Director
Supp. Actor
Cinematography
Sound Editing
Sound Mixing
VFX
Editing
Makeup
Art Direction
Score
That’s 11. And that’s impossible. It does, however, have a realistic shot at getting each one of these nods including maybe Adapted Screenplay and Costume Design, no? All I can do is just hope for the best.
“The Dark Knight” is for Awardsdaily what Jesus is for fundamental christs.
HALLELUJAAAAAH!
Kevin – Yeah I agree. Why must there be a fight?
Both were pretty damn good movies, and I liked them both.
But I am quite certain that WALL-E won’t make the BP cut. But if it does, especially over SLUMDOG, then I’m cool with it.
Glad you’re laughing, RRA. I’m still pissed and it’s been like 3 weeks since I saw that movie.
I’d give a big toe to know when those “Good night, Benjamin; Good night, Daisy” bits entered the script. Easy fiver that they were an eleventh-hour addition to disguise the way that Daisy settles for Benjamin after she loses the things she actually loves.
@ Dominik: you never did explain what “fundamental christs” are. Now that they’ve come up again, my curiosity is renewed.
Considering the literal meaning of “fundament,” perhaps a fundamental christ is some sort of divine derriere?
WALL-E, I refuse to get into this argument with you. Yes, WALL-E was great, I preferred The Dark Knight. End of story. I’m not going to argue this with you. All I’m going to say is that for every supporter WALL-E has, ther are just as many supporters for The Dark Knight. Can’t we all be happy that we got at least one film we loved? Jesus.
@86,
I loved the movie actually but u bring up a great point.
Its the exact same thing Jenny does for Forrest.
I would bet on Slumdog for best film award because the Indian market, 300 millions moviegoers every year, is very important for the future of the Hollywood industry.
Dont’t forget Cinema is an art, but is also, would I say mainly, an industry. Therefore the Academy must take all parameters into account.
Let’s see.
@ Ryan: Yes, funny, that. And then when they conceive, the father expresses concern that the child will have his genetic abnormality. Same ol’, same ol’.
At least Forrest seemed to genuinely give a shit. Benjamin basically went “Hope the kid’s normal. Well, peace out, I’m off to fulfill my dream of looking hot on every continent.”
TDK will have plenty of technical awards, plus the best sup actor award for Heath Ledger, and everybody will be happy.
Like I’ve said b4 and I will say it again & again…
This year is been excepcional for blockbusters, The Dark Knight and Iron Man, great reviews and great box-office…
One animated film is the best reviewed film of the year.
and Heath Ledger’s pop culture moment is priceless….
This year is not about the films who were planned to win Oscars, this is the year to recognize films who were planned to be that, A BEST PICTURE with the audience, with the box office, so the Academy can gives it the recognition then.
Im still predicting my final five
The Courious Case of Benjamin Button (Oscar movie)
Slumdog Millionaire (The indie movie of all the years)
Milk (The political statement)
The Dark Knight (The movie that changed the way we see drama/super heroe/action/blockbusters films)
Wall-E (The best reviewed film in the year and by far better than some others Oscar’s dramas (Doubt, Defiance, Revolutionary Road)
And like i said it b4 (LOL), This year AMPAS will give what people wants, and all the glamour, commercial movies (with gre8t quality), will be nominated among with big stars as nominees and presenters, HUGE RATINGS!!!
PS::::….AND i forgot!! Kate Winslet winning Best Leading Actress!!! :O!, after 5 Academy Awards nominations!!! WOOOOOOW, this is the year of the Oscars!!!
So, Why so Serious RRA?, my friend, now that you’ve “enlightened” me, let’s be clear on something: you DO NOT think that Danny Boyle directing the god-awful ‘The Beach’ should have any impact whatsoever on him being nominated or even winning the Academy Award for Best Director this year?
Really, just for clarity purposes.
And TDK has made one billion already and does not need to be pushed anymore.
@ Gentl Benj: “Considering the literal meaning of “fundament,” perhaps a fundamental christ is some sort of divine derriere?”
You are not only gentle, you are clever!
And now let´s stop debate and whorship the Knight!
But truly: I don´t know if you are a TDK-fanboy, but don´t you get a déja vu-feeling about this movie being repeatedly praised and praised again? It folllows the logic that you have to say it again and again, like a prayer in the Midwest (probably), cause otherwise you would risk starting to doubt it.
But not to offend someone, it´s a nice pic, truly…
I just can’t fathom a voting body who could pick a film like Frost/Nixon and ignore a film like The Dark Knight.
It would be like they brushed our teeth with their dicks.
“It would be like they brushed our teeth with their dicks.”
LOL, that´s how I felt when they chose “Chicago” instead of “The Pianist”.
What is flawed with the Dark Knight? I definitely think it deserves the nomination (even with some of its one liners)
Gentle Benj and Why so Serious RRA, if you ever come back, I’m curious as to what were your favorite films of 2008…
Saw Slumdog Millionaire yesterday.
The Dark Knight takes Best Picture. Wait and see. I still need to see Benjamim Buttom, though, but The Dark Knight is now too big to ignore, while Slumdog Millionaire felt to me, great but too gimmicky and I still have problems with a movie like this being awarded Best Picture: it doesn’t feel at all what the AMPAS members would pick… it’s almost if the AMPAS awarded The Blair Witch Project, don’t ask them that much, to award a movie with nobodies, shot in Mumbai, with little budget, and about TV shows, with no acting chances for the win. I still think, Original Screenplay and maybe also Cinematography or Score. Also, the last third of the movie, as usual in Boyle, feels weird, not really connected to the rest, and it still bugs me why Jamal’s brother would do what he does in such a way, in the end. It makes no sense, if you think twice and doesn’t connect at all with the character.
I can understand the love for ‘The Dark Knight; even though i am not a fan. However i wonder how many of all those people who say that it’s the best film of the year, have bothered to see smaller films such as The Reader, Doubt, Revolutionary Road, Milk etc, before making that statement. Saying that ‘The Dark Knight’ should be in the top5 at the Oscars without having seen the majority of the other films with serious chances is ridiculous (especially since some of them only these days start to be widely distirbuted)
Great article Sasha! You are our well-respected knight of this wonderful site!
I have seen The Reader, Doubt, Benjamin Button, Milk, The Dark Knight, Revolutionary Road, Gran Torino, Slumdog Millionaire and Wall-E. Of those films, the only ones I would see again are Slumdog, Wall-E and The Dark Knight. Of those three the only two I would buy are Wall-E and TDK. However, of those two, the only one I would pay to see in a theater again is TDK. It is hands-down the best theatrical experience of the year. If it is not nominated for Best Picture I will not bother watching the Oscar ceremony.
I don’t have time to parse through the true numbers: I’ll be late for work. BUT the stat Sasha quotes at the end is a bit tortured. It’s true, but it’s the confluence of 5 acts that are pretty rare. I’d be surprised if there are more than 2 other films this happened to. It’s sort of like judging someone’s batting average at an outdoor stadium in the month of may while facing left handed pitching in the fifth inning after a rain delay. The sampling pool is so small, it’s insignificant. First of all, the PGAs have only given a full slate for the past 10 years (for which we know the end result) So that’s 50 films. The PGA is about 3 for 5 on BP nominees so that’s down to 20 films. Then which of those films got a DGA nod… no clue, but that’s got to knock it down considerably, then which of those weren’t nommed for the BAFTA etc. The point is, if TDK misses, the stat becomes more important, but right now I don’t think it’s anything to worry about. Good thing to keep an eye on though.
Could be, TDK really isnt film for AMPAS, but which film will get nod, if TDK should be replaced? The Reader with no PGA, DGA, SAG or WGA support? I dont think so. BAFTA means nothing. WALL-E again with no guild support, but with great reviews? Four years ago had Incredibles from Pixar PGA and WGA nod and missed Best picture nod. Gran Torino? Not so good reviews, no nod from guilds or Globes/BAFTAS. But in last week, it gained momentum. Revolutionary road is weak part. The Wrestler could get nod if Aronfonsky will. But again, no guild support (only WGA).
“The Oscars are at their best when they honor films that weren’t designed to win Oscars but rather were designed to be good movies.”
Right, designed to be good movies, totally not designed to just make mad bucks at the box office, movies like The Dark Knight aren’t made for awards or quality, just for cash, I’ll never take it seriously in that regard, I agree with comment No. 2, passing off the opinion that “The Dark Knight is better than most movies released this year” as a fact, is ridiculous.
Your post itself says what I have been saying all award season long, Ledger’s performance is the only thing that made this film what it is, therefore, he is the only one who should get a nomination.
Revolutionary Road, Doubt or The Reader should be taking that fifth spot, I don’t even know why Revolutionary Road lost so much momentum.
Noneofyourbusiness, you inadvertantly made the case for TDK. The next Batman movie didn’t necessarily have to be a quality picture to make money, but it was. Even then, it wasn’t made to gross $530 million (most experts had it as low as $200, same as Batman Begins), but it did. It wasn’t made to get Oscar buzz, but it’s getting it. I don’t understand why many think that commerce and quality have to be separate from each other.
The Godfather has been mentioned repeatedly. Talk about a picture that was originally intended to make money! Paramount bought the rights to the book just to make a quick buck with the gangster genre. Put it in anyone else’s hands besides Coppola, it’s another forgotten film, and perhaps the gangster genre doesn’t give us classics such as Goodfellas or The Sopranos. Put anyone else but Nolan in the directors seat for this franchise, and it’s very likely we still have comic book movies that are essentially cartoons, instead of ones that push the boundaries like TDK and Iron Man did this year.
The Dark Knight, obviously, doesn’t have the stature that The Godfather has. Maybe it never will. But comic book films are the new gangster or and the new western, the genre that is going to drive the movie business in the next decade. And the genre finally got its Godfather this year. Perhaps it doesn’t deserve to be awarded, but it definitely deserves to be recognized.
Awardsdaily = fanboy website (so sad)
I almost feel like this is much ado about nothing. The Dark Knight is so high profile, particuarly recently in its push for Oscar, that how could voters Ignore it? The drum is being banged so loudly for its to be recognized. Couple that with its critical support/guild love/buzz over Ledger and moneymaking/fact it’d add variety to the Best Pic lineup, and you have your fifth slot!
@ manos
I’ve seen EVERY film you listed and more. I’ve also seen pretty much every oscar/oscarbait film for the last 8 years at least.
And I think TDK deserves BP nom (I would pick it for BP)
We all know that Heath will win the BSA oscar. And TDK will have a very strong sweep of tech awards. It will also have Directing nom. (and possible win)
It’s a good film. I see a lot of the same complaints about it and I think they are unfounded.
For example: People complain that the score is jarring and violent. But they are wrong to knock the film for it. They weren’t trying to make some flowery “we are all slowly walking through a garden” score like literally EVERY ever film made ever. Not all art must be pretty. I applaud the film for being one of the few films to take a score and actually have it match the mood of the film… The film is about a terrorist unleashing anarchy on society… The score fully matches it. (and the matches the other struggles and themes in the film)
Just one example of many I could give about this film being under rated.
Hmm, I haven’t thought of it that way, TomJones. Everyone’s talking about the precedents like Dreamgirls and Almost Famous that got universal guild support yet missed out on the BP snub, but what about the other way around? Any film that comes in and takes TDK’s place would be doing so without barely any major guild support. Revolutionary Road, The Reader, and Gran Torino have none, The Wrestler has a WGA nod, and Doubt has an SAG and WGA nod. Besides, didn’t someone report that they were camped outside the offices of PricewaterhouseCoopers watching for the delivery of last minute votes on Monday? Apparently, only about 50 or so had to be hand-delivered by the deadline, as opposed to a number up in the 200s last year. This suggests to me that voters made up their minds and sent in their ballot probably well before the Globes, Gran Torino’s sudden box office success (mind you, they couldn’t mail on Sunday), and most certainly the BAFTAs had any effect.
“The Reader with no PGA, DGA, SAG or WGA support? I dont think so. BAFTA means nothing”
just like BAFTA meant nothing with Atonement right? I’m not convinced The Reader gets in either, I’m just saying, I don’t really see The Reader getting in either, but I’m not following your line of reasoning.
Personally, I’m going to go out on a limb and say the Academy actually gets this one right this year…
Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Dark Knight
Milk
Slumdog Millionaire
Wall-E
@ Jason:
Every film is made to make money, but there’s a difference between a novel adaptation and a superhero sequel, the way this blogger states that Dark Knight is just made to “be a good movie” is ridiculous, the first and most important objective of a film along the lines of The Dark Knight is to top the box office, not get critical acclaim, critical acclaim is worth nothing to a film like The Dark Knight without the box office to back it up and you can’t disagree with that.
As I said, Ledger is the ONLY reason this film has gotten Oscar buzz, his performance along with his death elevated this film to a ridiculous level of undeserved praise, The Joker saves the movie from being a complete pretentious piece of garbage and that’s why he’s the only one who should get a nomination and with that, I rest my case, I know a lot of people disagree with what I posted, but whatever.
@None
I don’t disagree that Warner Brothers saw TDK as a tentpole film to make money, but I will counter that after the disasterous Batman Forever especially Batman and Robin, the only way they’d be able to successfully bring back the Batman franchise is if they made good movies. The franchise was for all intents and purposes dead and buried ten years ago. They needed critical acclaim for both movies to bring it back to life.
@ none of your business
Your comments are petty and idiotic.
It’s like saying that Tom Hanks performance of Forrest Gump was the only reason that movie recieved any praise. Or Javier Bardem is the only reason “No Country For Old Men” deserves praise.
What about tech awards… even someone as “pretentious” as you couldn’t really be suggesting that TDK doesn’t deserve any tech awards?
Seems to me that you have caught a bit of “critic snob.” …but go on and tell yourself that TDK sucks because it’s just a “super hero film”
Comparing “Forrest Gump” and “No Country…” to The Dark Knight? Wow, I guess you’re the first fanboy offended by my comment who needs to resort to insults in order to defend his precious movie? That’s why The Dark Knight’s fanbase cannot be taken seriously, all a bunch of pseudo movie goers who can’t express their opinion in an intelligent manner, sorry, but all actors on “Forrest Gump” and “No Country…” did an amazing job, not just one like in “The Dark Knight”, I guess that’s why the SAG didn’t feel like it was worthy of an ensemble award right? Heath Ledger carried the film and made it what it is, get over it.
And who said anything about tech awards? I’m talking major ones, I don’t waste time arguing about categories that nobody cares about or even remembers who won years later.
I don’t know why people keep worrying about The Dark Knight being nominated. Of course it will be nominated, how could it not?
“The Dark Knight, if nominated will probably become the first film to get the PGA and DGA nods, but lose the Globe nod, the SAG ensemble nod and the BAFTA nod but still go on to be nominated for an Oscar.” – Il Postino (1995)
Fanboys take note, it’s *behind* WALL-E. By 100+ points! In any fair world WALL-E would be a shoe-in for a Best Picture nom and TDK would be the one we’re “worried” about making it in. Academy take note.
WALL-E should not and will not be nominated for Best Pic. That’s just ridiculous if it does. IMO
@ none of your business
“Awards that nobody cares about”… and you call me a psuedo movie.
Tech awards are important and do count.. Hmm… what does a movie like slumdog have in “major catagories” going for it? Adaptad screenplay? please… Doubt, RR, frost/nixon are the front runners for it. Acting? no again… so that just leaves directing. Look I like Slumdog and the other front runners… but you can’t have a double standard. Your saying only major catagories count… then accuse TDK of being worhtless and only being carried by Heath… when no other films are going to do any better then 1 or 2 awards from your “important catagories”… Just like TDK will have at least 1 win from important catagories.
If you ask me, FIVE is a big number to fill in terms of Best Picture nominees this year.
Let’s just say, 4 is good enough so we don’t have to worry about that “fifth” slot.
I’m just saying.
what = Another DK hater asshole AD has to put up with (so HEARTBREAKING!)
And Noneofyour, I can’t even fathom how Sasha’s post gives you the idea she agrees with your wrong assertion that Ledger is the ONLY reason people love TDK. Yes, he’s the main reason, BY FAR the most remarkable element of the picture, but it also has superb direction, cinematography, and a very fine script (especially the dialogue for The Joker).
I think Sasha did an excellent job of listing all the reasons the film is so powerful, and she did much more than just say “Heath!”, so your comment doesn’t make sense.
@ Brian
Way to twist my words, I don’t have a double standard, I didn’t say that those categories didn’t count, just that they’re not MAJOR or IMPORTANT, those categories only matter to the studios and the people who are nominated for them, I wasn’t belittling their professions and the effort they were putting into the films, of course they’re important, they’re just not relevant for me to bring them into this discussion, which I thought was discussing The Dark Knight’s chances for MAJOR categories? Movies like “Norbit” got tech nominations, so gimme a break, does anyone remember that “The Bourne Ultimatum” won 3 Oscars? No, why? Because nobody cares about those categories.
And Slumdog Millionaire and The Curious Case of Benjamin Button are obviously the frontrunners for Adapted Screenplay, where have you been? Revolutionary Road doesn’t even have a chance for that anymore, better check your facts.
“Another DK hater asshole AD has to put up with”
Last I checked, this site is not a Dark Knight fansite so get off your high horse, I never said that the blogger agrees with my assertion, just saying that it was pointed out in the post, to me, the only major nomination it deserves is Best Supporting Actor, if you disagree, then good for you.
“frankly the Oscars need these good movies much more than the movies need the Oscars.”
Perfectly said. DK not making BP and BD won’t affect it’s popularity at all; in fact, it arguably could make it even more popular. But if the Oscars don’t nominate it, they’ll lose a lot of it’s popularity and credibility. And haters can say what they want, but they can never deny this.
If ]I were the Academy, I would nominated the 5 most representative and diverse films of the year.
An epic-blockbuster-quality-instant classic:
THE DARK KNIGHT
A little-author-indie-gem:
THE WRESTLER
An international-stylish-crowdpleaser:
SLUMDOG MILLIONAIRE
A politic-sexy-bio:
MILK
Finally a dark romance-drama-star vehicle:
REVOLUTIONARY ROAD
“I honestly do believe that TDK is getting a lot of this flack because it was supposed to be a mear popcorn flick that got elivated to a much higher status. Honestly, that’s a bit unfair.”
Exactly. Most of the complaints come from people that can’t accept that a “comic book movie” can’t be more than entertaining popcorn (though they usually love Persepolis or A History of Violence too, go figure).
fanboys are something else.
@ none
Unfortunately, biased editors have allowed this site to become nothing more than a TDK fanboy website. It’s pretty disappointing actually.
TDK = a good film that was utterly tainted by fanboys who took a great performance by Heath Ledger and ran with it…
TDK is suddenly a “masterpiece” on the level of movies like “Citizen Kane” and “The Godfather.” Give me a break. It’s good, don’t get me wrong. But come on. You guys are fucking delusional if you think the TDK is the best movie of the year, hands down. Technically, it’s stunning. But, the acting (not including Heath) is mediocre (with a pretty amazing cast this is a pretty sad feat). The story is muddled toward the ending. It’s not even Nolan’s best (Following, Memento). In trying to do too much, it did very little. I applaud Nolan for his effort. It certainly had the potential to be a masterpiece. But, ultimately I think Nolan failed. However, that’s not to say it’s not a good movie, just not the masterpiece people are making it out to be.
the dude = a relentless fanboy who has to hurl insults at others rather than defending the obvious flaws in TDK
The only thing The Dark Knight did was draw in a bunch of people who didn’t give a shit about the Oscars or award season and who like to pretend they know their movies, it’s beyond pathetic. One of those instances where a movie’s fanbase is enough to make you hate it, you almost don’t want it nominated to see the backlash and the reaction from all of these morons.
As I said before, people just love to hate.
just relax, people… fact is, The Dark Knight has less against it being nom’d or winning than Slumdog Millionaire has. If Slumdog wasn’t that backed by precursors, it would be just another Billy Elliott or The Constant Gardener, at best, in terms of Oscar appeal.
We’re so escheptical of the AMPAS giving it to a raved as masterpiece and instant classic blockbuster, against a crowdpleaser starred by unknowns which ain’t even an american movie or even set in America. I wonder… has people gone nuts? Traditionally, it would be no contest for the AMPAS, the only thing going for Slumdog Millionaire is that the AMPAS nowadays is less scared to open up. Or is it? Go ask Ang Lee.
[QUOTE]Rebecca – The difference between SLUMDOG and TDK is that some people who seem to back SLUMDOG, seem to do it because they think SLUMDOG makes them feel better about themselves about poverty or whatever sillyness. Like how CRASH years ago, its people feeling guilty over racism or something.
But hey, your opinion is your opinion, and it sounds fair. I think at least I want TDK nominated for Picture/Director, you know a ticket to the big dance. Shit imagine if both Nolan and Fincher got nominated.
Two of my favorite directors in competition? AWESOME. But I’ll be pissed if Danny I DIRECTED THE BEACH Boyle beats them. That’s just wrong on so many fundamental levels.
Shit, imagine the director of FIGHT CLUB winning. That would make a 2nd winner who’s helmed a picture from the ALIEN franchise.*
*=The previous, obviously, was James Cameron.[/QUOTE]
shit, imagine the guy that directed “28 days later” winning best director and best picture which he is favored to do
I wonder if anyone besides me would be excited and smiling if Thursday’s “surprise snubs” in the Best Picture category turned out to include Slumdog Millionaire*, Revolutionary Road, The Reader, WALL-E, Doubt and Frost/Nixon?
*It’s not going to happen, of course, but that would certainly shake the dust out of this race.
“I wonder if anyone besides me would be excited and smiling if Thursday’s “surprise snubs” in the Best Picture category turned out to include Slumdog Millionaire*, Revolutionary Road, The Reader, WALL-E, Doubt and Frost/Nixon?”
I’m sure you would love that, since that is the only way TDK could win. *roll eyes*, stupid fanboy.
to Lopez:
Arguing with fanboys is like arguing with religious fanatics: it is simply impossible to have a constructive conversation with them in large part because they are so defensive. Admitting a flaw in the movie seldom occurs. And, in order to defend the movie or religion, they have to insult other films (i.e. slumdog millionaire).
AD encourages it by posting shit about TDK ad naseum.
Fanboy or not, I think MOST of us can agree that TDK was one of the 5 best films of the year, hands down. Here’s hoping the AMPAS get it right this year. With that being said:
“Some Academy members can’t be bought, bargained, or reasoned with…Some Academy members just want to watch the world BURN…”
[QUOTE]Noneofyourbusiness, you inadvertantly made the case for TDK. The next Batman movie didn’t necessarily have to be a quality picture to make money, but it was. Even then, it wasn’t made to gross $530 million (most experts had it as low as $200, same as Batman Begins), but it did. It wasn’t made to get Oscar buzz, but it’s getting it. I don’t understand why many think that commerce and quality have to be separate from each other.
The Godfather has been mentioned repeatedly. Talk about a picture that was originally intended to make money! Paramount bought the rights to the book just to make a quick buck with the gangster genre. Put it in anyone else’s hands besides Coppola, it’s another forgotten film, and perhaps the gangster genre doesn’t give us classics such as Goodfellas or The Sopranos. Put anyone else but Nolan in the directors seat for this franchise, and it’s very likely we still have comic book movies that are essentially cartoons, instead of ones that push the boundaries like TDK and Iron Man did this year.
The Dark Knight, obviously, doesn’t have the stature that The Godfather has. Maybe it never will. But comic book films are the new gangster or and the new western, the genre that is going to drive the movie business in the next decade. And the genre finally got its Godfather this year. Perhaps it doesn’t deserve to be awarded, but it definitely deserves to be recognized.[/QUOTE]
and to add, the godfather was at the time the highest grossed film ever! it was a MEGA blockbuster like TDK….
“the godfather was at the time the highest grossed film ever! it was a MEGA blockbuster like TDK”
Except that The Godfather doesn’t owe it’s mega blockbuster status to the untimely death of a second rate actor.
My rankings this year are as follows right now…
1. The Wrestler
2. Benjamin Button
3. Slumdog Millionaire
4. Wall-E
5. Milk
6. TDK
7. Iron Man
8. Frost/Nixon
How is the Wrestler not in the mix for best picture? That movie is excellent, it’s Mean Streets for this generation.
[QUOTE]Noneofyourbusiness, you inadvertantly made the case for TDK. The next Batman movie didn’t necessarily have to be a quality picture to make money, but it was. Even then, it wasn’t made to gross $530 million (most experts had it as low as $200, same as Batman Begins), but it did. It wasn’t made to get Oscar buzz, but it’s getting it. I don’t understand why many think that commerce and quality have to be separate from each other.
The Godfather has been mentioned repeatedly. Talk about a picture that was originally intended to make money! Paramount bought the rights to the book just to make a quick buck with the gangster genre. Put it in anyone else’s hands besides Coppola, it’s another forgotten film, and perhaps the gangster genre doesn’t give us classics such as Goodfellas or The Sopranos. Put anyone else but Nolan in the directors seat for this franchise, and it’s very likely we still have comic book movies that are essentially cartoons, instead of ones that push the boundaries like TDK and Iron Man did this year.
The Dark Knight, obviously, doesn’t have the stature that The Godfather has. Maybe it never will. But comic book films are the new gangster or and the new western, the genre that is going to drive the movie business in the next decade. And the genre finally got its Godfather this year. Perhaps it doesn’t deserve to be awarded, but it definitely deserves to be recognized.[/QUOTE]
well, i think the most overrated assumption is that TDK is getting all the attention and hype just because of the death fo ledger and his performance, which i believe is a gift and a curse. it’s a gift for obvious reasons, but a curse because it overshadows everything else that was great about the movie. take away ledger and you STILL have one of the illest movies of 2008. the final scene was actually, in my eyes, one of the greatest endings in recent memory and it had nothing to do with ledger at all. there’s so many great things from a technical, moral, and visual standpoint that can be said about this film without even mentioning ledger, but because the icing on the cake IS his performance, one of the greatest of this decade, in my opinion, add to his untimely death, it overshadows everything else and becomes the scapegoat for naysayers.
Will somebody screw lopez’s head on straight, so I don’t have to? Thanks.
Lopez…
I loved TDK but would never label myself a “fanboy”. And neither is Paul Outlaw. He is actually a very smart thinker and discusses films very well, something you would know if you read his other posts. He knows films and is not backing The Dark Knight just because it is the one film he has seen all year.
Heath Ledger was certainly not “second rate”. Although at the beginning of his career, he did do the easy, fluffy stuff, he did start to mature as an actor…his performance in Brokeback was not even close to second rate. It was amazing, Oscar-worthy.
I can see your frustration. I am getting a little sick of the constant push for The Dark Knight. Just let it go by this point. All this bickering about it getting in won’t do anything anymore. It is a little tiring hearing all this “TDK better get in” banter, but I think it comes from a place of insecurity. People are unsure of TDK getting in because it is unfortunately stigmatized with the “comic book movie” label.
And just because someone says they hated Slumdog and liked TDK does not make them a “fanboy”. That is just someone’s feelings. I loved both films and hope they both do well.
“Will somebody screw lopez’s head on straight, so I don’t have to? Thanks.”
LOL, so not praising The Dark Knight means you’re insane? Then I love being insane.
I can appreciate your post Alex as it is by far the only unbiased post I’ve read in here, but, one gets called a “troll” for saying that “The Dark Knight” is not the best movie of the year, so I guess I can play the same card and call them fanboys right back, wasn’t calling him a fanboy because of Slumdog Millionaire though.
I think someone mentioned this before, but why are the flaws in TDK always called into question, but never the flaws of the other supposed “Top 5″, or any other Academy-friendly picture? It’s hard to find a film that doesn’t have some flaw or another, so I don’t get the point. I also like the fact that people think if you love, or are pushing for TDK, you know NOTHING about film. The pretensiousness of all this is unreal. And hilarious.
So now I guess Heath is as good as Brando, Deniro and Pacino. In fact, had he lived, he would have been better than these guys. I mean his performance in “10 things I hate about you” was comparable to Brando’s performance in Streetcar named desire or Deniro’s “taxi driver.” Heath is (was) the greatest actor ever. And, TDK is the greatest movie ever.
It should win everything. Oscar, emmy (primetime and daytime), golden globe, tony, grammy, boomscar. It should be at least number 1 on every film blog or ranking imaginable (even best animated). It is the number 1 film of the last 200 years. I don’t understand why Heath is getting nominated for best supporting. He should get nominated for at least best actor.
TDK forever. (slumdog sucks)
Pacino = overrated.
because the flaws in TDK make it a good summer blockbuster. minus the flaws, then you have a masterpiece.
Some flaws are minuscule. others are significant. Flaws vary according to impact on a film. No one film is perfect. The lighting in one movie could be off or the sound. But the last third act of TDK is laughable. A swedish film (Let the right one in) with a fraction of TDKs budget was able to convey the hideousness of a charred face better than the TDK.
Another reason why TDK just didn’t do it for is that it took itself way too seriously only to include a ridiculous concept like sonar (implausible right). If it wanted to be gritty and realistic, it should have shot for the R rating, included blood, and taken out some of the cheesy dialogue. But it didn’t. It gets a solid B for me.
J = not too subtle troll for Heath Ledger
“pacino = overrated”
I’m not even going to defend that. Pacino’s accomplishments speak for themselves.
Jesus, watching fanboys and snobs go at it is like watching a turf war between piranhas. Awesome, but kind of brutal.
I got it Ryan,
Lopez, Ryan and the rest of the site are pissed at you for calling Heath Ledger a second rate actor. Of course they are. It’s an incendiary comment. Only a turdbrained mongoloid like yourself could miss that. See incendiary comments go both ways, unless your target is dead. But only a inbreeding lardassed coward would do that.
You are worse than a troll, you are a trollestine.
(Troll + Phillistine = Trollestine)
what…
I don’t think anyone is saying that. In my opinion, it is one of the best films of this decade, but that is merely my opinion.
I think the people who are celebrating this film are being punished a litlte too much with the label of “fanboy”. Although some TDK fans are being aggressive for the sake of being contrary, other supporters of TDK are just taking offense to people calling the film bad because a lot of the detractors who are doing so are not backing up their opinion. And if they do support their view it is lame…”bad last act,” “Two-face CGI was bad”…etc. Slumdog Millionaire’s finale was not the greatest either, yet I ignored its minor flaws because I loved the film as a whole. Same goes for TDK.
And, “what,” I know that you are kidding, but Ledger’s performance in 10 Things I Hate About You is pretty special. He really elevated that film with his charisma. Even then, it is clear that he is a great actor. And I am not just saying this now…I thought this way 10 years ago when the film came out!
Ledger = MTV movie award actor before Brokeback
Pacino = third feature film was “The Godfather”
J = Not a fan of Heath either.
Please let me in on what makes Pacino one of the greatest actors. And before anyone mentions it, I know he’s great in the Godfather…
what = faux authority on motion pictures.
“bad last act”
How is that not an adequate criticism?
The Godfather, The Godfather Part II, Serpico, Dog Day Afternoon, Heat, Glengary Glenross, The Merchant of Venice, 88 minutes (wait not that one), Insomnia…
oh I forgot The Insider
Hey what,
I guess it has to do with a matter of opinion. I agree, “bad last act” is an adequate criticism. But, I don’t feel it applies to TDK. It feels like a lousy excuse some have made up to tarnish TDK (“we have to pull it down some way…why don’t we criticize its last act”).
Not to say that that is you. You probably are justified in your dislike of the last act. However, I know that I didn’t have a problem with it…
Al Pacino in Scent of a Woman. Why does everyone criticize his Oscar winning performance? He was really very good.
But, he was great in the little seen Merchant of Venice.
Alex = reasonable TDK fan
“You probably are justified in your dislike…”
Fair enough.
ha, lopez. I love being insane too.
I didn’t mean you’re mixed up because you don’t praise The Dark Knight. I only had a problem with “second-rate actor” remark and also your theory that TDK “owes its blockbuster status” to millions and millions of people with morbid curiosity who felt compelled to see the last performance of an actor because of his “untimely death”
Bless Bernia Mac. Rest in peace. But Soul Men didn’t become a megablockbuster after he died.
People don’t go see movies because the star died.
Brad Renfro, another hearthrob, three years younger than Ledger, died a week before Heath in another accidental overdose (under even more tabloidy circumstances). His last movie, The Informers, comes out this summer. Do you want to suggest that it will earn $530 mil because of his “untimely death”?
J is your favorite actor Vin Diesel?
To Ryan:
Bernie Mac = middle aged Black dude
Heath Ledger = young and attractive white guy with an immense appeal to young girls
Death is only one factor.
what,
okay, I agree with Godfather I and II and Serpico. After that, he’s basically played the same character in every movie he’s been in. Heat’s one of my favorite films, but he was not the reason.
I think the argument is: the death of Heath contributed in part to the success of TDK. Not, the death of Heath is the cause of the success of TDK (two totally different arguments).
what,
Vin Deisel is an insult to film. I’m glad you think so highly of me though.
Have you seen the “Merchant of Venice”, “The Insider”, “Insomnia” (Nolan film) etc … “
@ J, Pacino’s run from Godfather to Scarface is extraordinary. Even though he’s washed up now, you can’t take that away from him.
@ what, we’re all fanboys, but you’re a hater. There are two sides to that coin, and you’re just the burnt side
@ Alex, because it’s the most famous case of the Academy giving an Oscar to someone for snubbing them in their greater works. Plus Denzel was head and shoulders better in Malcom X, even Clint Eastwood was better in Unforgiven.
what about Brad Renfro, what? (what, what?) Did you read the rest of my comment? (#164)
So you’re saying now that TDK owes its success to Heath’s appeal to young girls? Did you look around the audience when you saw it, what?
Who was there when you saw it, what?
(Now I feel trapped in a ‘Who’s On First’ re-enactment.)
To J,
If you can’t even give respect to Pacino, I question your knowledge about film. Since I tend to equate poor film knowledge with Vin Diesel fans. So I asked if VD is your favorite actor.
Jason,
How long did it take you to think of that?
I’m not saying Pacino hasn’t been great at times. I’m saying I think his career has been slightly overrated. As is the argument here, Heath has also had his moments (Monster’s Ball, Brokeback, and yes, TDK). That doesn’t make any of us TDK pushers fanboys. And it doesn’t mean Heath is the shit.
what,
You didn’t question my knowledge of film. You accused me of embracing Vin Deisel. How dare you.
To Ryan,
You obviously have very little knowledge regarding multivariate statistics. I’m not saying anything caused the success of TDK. I’m sure it was a number of variables. You keep using highly causative language. No one can deny there is at least a correlation between the death of a major film star and at least some interest in some of their final films. Couple that with a blockbuster like Batman, you are bound to see what we’ve seen. I’ve never even heard of the Informer and I am sure many people haven’t.
I think it’s pretty pathetic when someone just thrashes about fans of anything. Just think a bit and realize that if no fanboys existed, sites likes this wouldnt exist.
ALL sites that dedicate themselves to predict Oscar are fanboy sites.
So some of you, open your eyes and welcome to the world.
To J,
“slightly overrated”
in what sense? Heath is overrated, yes. But, Pacino.
what,
I already explained myself. Most of his roles are type-cast characters. Of course, this is my opinion. I’m sure I’ll get lambasted for it.
To Ryan,
Unfortunately your analogy doesn’t hold under close scrutiny b/c Heath is not equal to Brad Renfro. That dude played in Law and Order episodes toward the end of his career. Heath was just breaking out. It’s a terrible analogy.
what, I wasn’t even talking to you. I was replying to lopez.
It’s his idea that TDK became a blockbuster because of Heath’s death.
But it’s fun to see you come around picking fights with everybody. Nobody has any knowledge about anything except you today! Keep it up.
“You obviously have very little knowledge regarding” what bothers me.
J,
Please explain to me how Pacino is typecast. I’m asking you to. You haven’t explained anything. How I see it: his character in “Merchant” is significantly different from his character in “The Insider.”
I do think curiosity for Ledger’s performance and the circumstances of his death, coupled with the fact that the release was brilliantly marketed, lead to TDK breaking the opening day and opening weekend record.
But the movie made $530 million. I don’t care how big it opened, to get to THAT number people have to see it over and over. And it wasn’t just fanboys, because if that was the case, how come none of the other Batman or comic book movies ever reached those heights (even adjusted for inflation). What, you may have hated it, but there is a rabid love for that movie from people of all walks of life. If you can’t see that, then you must have blinders on.
To ryan,
I really thought comment 172 was a response to me. Maybe I’m wrong. Just defend your position adequately before you make frivolous claims. I don’t agree with Lopez’s argument either. But you accused me of arguing a position I do not hold and I take offense to it. You’ve accused others of making causative arguments only to show how ridiculous they are by siting obscure no names like fucking Brad Renfro. You know an analogy between the two cases is risible.
what,
Agreed. You’re giving me 2 examples though. I’m talking about the body of work as a whole. For instance, in Heat, Pacino plays a gum-chewing, short-fused, loudmouth. In Dick Tracy ( a role he was nominated for), he plays a gum-chewing, short-fused, loudmouth.
To jason,
I don’t hate TDK. I thought it was a good film.
In Scent of a Woman (another role he was nominated for, and won for), he plays (a blind) gum-chewing, short-fused, loudmouth…
“…but there is a rabid (emphasis) love for that movie from people of all walks of life.” = mostly fanboys and tweeners
The movie was good. But come on top ten for IMDB. Please.
@ J
In Any Given Sunday, he plays gum-chewing, short-fused, loudmouth…
This is fun.
J,
I’ll give you that. The gum chewing does get a bit annoying.
He’s still an iconic actor.
@ Jason
Thanks. Forgot that one.
Iconic and great are two different things.
kinda ironic with the ledger vs. pacino comparison, being that pacino WAS nominated for best supporting actor for his role in dick tracy…
so J what are you arguing?
- Pacino’s not a good actor? or Pacino is overrated? Overrated to what? He’s not as legendary as everyone makes him out to be because he has some idiosyncrasies similar in a few of his characters? That’s your argument?
@ none
“Unfortunately, biased editors have allowed this site to become nothing more than a TDK fanboy website. It’s pretty disappointing actually.!
Totally agree…is pathetic…
I think Sasha should revamp the site and call it…
TDK DAILY….formerly known as TDK WATCH
He who laughs last laughs the loudest …I’m gonna enjoy Oscars nods morning…when finaly TDK doesn’t get a BP nod and this site goes back to serious business
So on a list of top actors for J, yours would include…
Let’s just do american actors. so top american actors….
So first for J is:
1. Heath Ledger…who’s next?
shit Heath is Australian so he’s off
@ what
Comment #172 was in response to you, after you butted into my friendly reply to lopez in #164.
You’re the one who jumped in taking up the position that lopez suggested.
You’re the one who’s trying to say TDK owes its success to Heath’s “appeal to young girls”
You dragged your own ass into it. I’m just quoting you.
We’re all interested to see how long you can sustain this contortionist act, though. Very entertaining to see somebody use terms like “risible” and “multivariate statistics” as he trolls around with his head up his butt.
Quite a show you’re putting on.
what = increasingly annoying distraction
This is what happens when we feed the Mogwhat after midnight. Please don’t splash any water on him.
I’m a snob who doesn’t like anything other than unoriginal oscar bait films.
I don’t like TDK because the dim witted masses DO like it.
I’d like to think I’m better than the general public…so I will find anything at all real or imagined to attack the most popular film in a decade.
Coming on forums to spread my snobbery around makes me happy!!!
haha TDK sucks…because…uh….it looked like batman was flying on strings…and uh… the car chase looked like it was done with hotwheels…and…uh… ya haha….
so this is going to be tough for you J
202 = Not what the original
The death of Heath is the ONLY cause of the success of TDK
To Ryan,
Dude, I never argued TDK owed it success to teenage girls. Only a fool would make such an agreement. You can scan this thread for stuff I’ve said and I never said that. So stop putting words in my mouth. the death of heath ledger is one of the factors which led to the interest of TDK, nothing more nothing less
Stop getting so defensive because you’re a douche.
The fact is, “the movie goers” that you all keep referencing, are not right. The average IQ is 100. Most people are idiots. Most people don’t understand subtlety, which the Dark Knight lacks entirely, hence why it was so popular. Most people need movies that go boom! and do not even know what good acting is or what to look for. The Academy is not comprised of peasants. It is comprised of educated, experienced, intelligent and discerning adults.
I do think the Dark Knight should be nominated, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the general public’s adoration. The same public loves Pineapple Express and Superbad, and admires Robert Pattison’s acting skills in Twilight.
I’m just saying I think he’s slightly overrated. Sorry.
List of top actors would include, I guess:
Sean Penn
Robert DeNiro
Denzel Washington (kinda suffers from the Pacino disease at times)
Josh Brolin (the last 2 years)
Wow…pretty hard making a list.
I like when people admit they’re snobs.
Can I mention Al Pacino played a gum-chewing, short-fused, loudmouth in Gigli also?
202,
I appreciate the flattery.
To J,
But Denzel gets on your list because… Denzel’s been playing the same character for a few years now.
“The death of Heath is the ONLY cause of the success of TDK”.
Success….critical or financial? Or both?
@ Alex
Good one. I didn’t even want to bring that up, but it definitely applies.
So, on one hand, Pacino is not a good actor because he plays the same character but, on the other, Denzel makes your top list because he’s been playing the same character too. Seems internally contradictory too me don’t you think?
agreement should be argument…I guess I’m the douche
what,
I stepped right into that one. I totally agree, which is why I supplemented it with my perentheses.
“The death of Heath is the ONLY cause of the success of TDK.”
This is an idiotic remark. Heath is playing a character. TDK is successfull because it’s a great film. Period. What if Sean Penn played the Joker? I’m willing to bet it would have been a hit – maybe even a bigger hit than it already is.
You could make the argument Pacino is so revered for The Godfather is because he played a cigarette smoking, long-fused, quiet mouth. That was a big stretch for him.
/still loves Al Pacino.
what,
You brought up Pacino as one of the greatest actors. I said he was slightly overrated. You got mad. I tried to make a case for it. You didn’t.
J,
Pacino being overrated is a matter of opinion. Just like us debating over TDK is a matter of opinion. This is fruitless. It might be the lowest form of intellectual engagement (aside from masturbation). I apologize for any incendiary comments.
Ryan, you’re not a douche.
We shouldn’t have a jihad over this. TDK is a great movie. End of story. I’m finished.
Jason makes a good point.
what,
Appology accepted. All in good fun. I propose potentially arguing over any possible reason why Tyler Perry is allowed to have multiple vehicles in film and television.
Let us all thank Mathew for a perfect example of a snob:
He refers to movie goers as: Low IQ, peasants, idiots, who “don’t understand”and “do not even know”
And Academy members as: educated, experienced, intelligent, discerning, adults.
Get over yourself… those same peasants also like Titanic, Godfather, Return of the King etc… hmm.. seems like excellent films to me.
It’s a good question. I’m guessing b/c he’s black (not being racist). I mean Uwe Boll makes god awful movies and people recognize them for what they are, god awful.
You can’t help but be a snob when you prefer to go by Matthew, as opposed to Matt.
I repeat…The death of Heath is the ONLY cause of the success of TDK
I’m a 32 yo educated European male who NEVER spends a penny going to the cinema to see blockbusters like TDK…
The ONLY reason I went to see TDK and spent $15 is because of Heath…
then I realised that a blockbuster like TDK…even if Heath is on it…is just a waste of time and money…and in this case as well a crap facist movie for a brainwashed nation….
what,
True. However, Rob Zombie is allowed to trash Halloween (again, I might add), and some people applaud him for it. Odd.
@ J ROFL
J UK,
How educated, and forward-thinking. You’re a force to be wreckoned with.
I will honestly be surprised if The Dark Knight doesn’t get nominated. That would be like Titanic not getting nominated 11 years ago. It just wouldn’t make any sense how you can ignore a movie that big, with all the critical and fan acclaim. I’m not saying TDK will win, but it deserves to be nominated. Just because it didn’t get nominated for a BAFTA or Golden Globe doesn’t mean it won’t get recognized by the Academy. And if they don’t recognize it, shame on them.
that’s true. well then i must say I’m stumped.
J UK’s post is even more advanced and enlightened if you read it out loud in a British accent.
J UK: “I repeat…The death of Heath is the ONLY cause of the success of TDK
The ONLY reason I went to see TDK and spent $15 is because of Heath…”
I am a human being.
Therefore, the only reason any human being will spend $15 to see TDK is because of Heath.
*sigh*
Dr. What,
Can you help us out here?
What’s the term for this? logical phallusy? something like that.
J UK,
You’re trying way too hard. Hey everyone let’s all pay attention to J UK as he bashes the US and tells us how bad TDK is.
@Jason
That’s exactly what I did. I felt like Tony Blair.
To Ryan,
I purposely decided not to comment on the logic. It’s that bad.
Does anyone else picture J UK as an old man drinking tea with a spoon and eating crumpets in front of a lap top in the park, face flush with anger at the plebs who dare say that they enjoyed that Batman film, or am I just really bored at work?
what: “let’s all pay attention to J UK as he bashes the US”
He paid $15 to see TDK?
I paid $16 to see it twice.
USA! USA! USA!
@ Jason
A great picture, although he confidently stated he was in his thirties. Maybe he’s closer to being like any character in Match Point.
“Maybe he’s closer to being like any character in Match Point….”
..who’d rahther hahve beeeen in Brideshead Revisted.
(lol @ “drinking tea with a spoon”)
@ Ryan
Nice.
I live in London…but thank god I’m not British…
Just a couple of quotes from Stephen Murray’s Review of TDK…
“Ledger’s creepy performance is enhanced by the knowledge that inhabiting the role seems to have played at least a part in his death. (Insofar as this is so, it was not worth it, even if a posthumous Oscar is awarded, rather than the one he should have had for “Brokeback Mountain.”)
“Aren’t the massive expansion of surveillance and brutal interrogation methods too close to the reality of Bush’s America to be entertaining? In this regard, I can’t see the movie as being a critique of them by showing them, particularly the interrogation methods. Well, except that they are ineffective in the movie.”
“I guess that the special effects (not just the explosions and chases) entertain many and that what I see as the “issues” about “noble lies” and vigilantism went down with the popcorn without much chewing. My attention wandered from some of the plot intricacies in the second half hour (after the bravura opening holdup in which the Joker eliminates those with competence, an echo of the recent US that did not immediately come to my mind).”
I understand if you don’t get the point…In the end you voted Bush twice…
When I stare at this thread, the thread stares also into me.
@ J UK
Thanks. You’re perpetual smugness has been substituted for someone else’s
Heath Ledger ain’t dead, he just went home.
I’m not sure about the rest of you, but dying after a role like “The Joker” is probably one of the best ways to go out. Daniel Day Lewis is the best actor of all time.
I do believe that one of the main reasons people don’t think TDK should be nominated is because it’s an action/superhero/popcorn movie. Some cinephiles (hopefully not a majority) are pretty snobbish/”clannish”. They can talk endlessly about Sergei Eisenstein, Bergman, Fellini, and Tarkovsky, and call other people Philistines for not knowing what they are talking about. They want to be taken seriously. I should know. I was/am one of them. I joined film groups in undergrad and grad school and took some classes in film. I always watched art films and indy movies, and bashed commercial Hollywood films. But then, there’s nothing wrong with a well-made Hollywood commercial film. I remember cursing Titanic and criticizing people who chose that instead of L.A. Confidential. Of course, several years after, when I thought about it, even if I totally abhorred the screenplay and the acting, the other technical aspects were first rate.
Having taken some courses in film, I do know that there is no such thing as a minor category. Every little thing contributes to the film. If you consider the work that the production designer or sound editor or film editor (this of course I experienced first hand when I edited our short film for class) puts in a film, you would really appreciate the importance of such categories. The fact that TDK was recognized by a lot of the guilds is really important. It goes to show the respect that people in the same line of work have for their colleagues. I know this sounds like Academy speech bullshit, but it’s true. Once you’ve experienced the painstaking labor of making a seamless movie, then you appreciate it when your editor-colleagues recognize your work.
I did like TDK. Yes, I watched it twice, in a regular moviehouse and in Imax. Yes, I have the DVD, just like I have The Godfather, Seventh Seal, Ikiru, and Andrei Rubilev (to name a few). And I’m not going to ignore it just because “the masses”, the “Philistines” loved it. Heck, I loved it just as much as they did. I stood in line 2 hours before the Imx showing. Does it have flaws? Of course it does. But it’s still good nonetheless. Hey, being in the top 10 of more than 100 top ten lists is certainly an achievement.
So for the fanboys (I guess I’m one of them), don’t worry. We are in good company. We have the guilds and many critics backing us.
For those who did not like TDK, I’m sure you have a good reason and I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Although we may not have the same opinion on this, I’m sure that in the other films, like Slumdog or Milk or Let the Right One In, we are in agreement.
But man, I sure hope TDK gets nominated…
I don’t understand what is so wrong about being a snob. Yes I am a snob, and I am proud of that fact, as it represents the culmination of years of hard work in boarding school and college, sacrifice on my part and that of my parents, and ultimate success in the real world.
LOTR especially and Titanic as well were good films, but not as good as Pan’s Labyrinth, There Will Be Blood, Million Dollar Baby or No Country For Old Men, none of which received the record breaking box office numbers. The point is, most people seek entertainment, i.e. making things go boom, crude jokes/stupid humor, or idealized, shallow romance/good looking people, rather than intellectual stimulation. LOTR, Titanic and TDK all managed to pander to the vulgate without completely sacrificing artistic sensibilities (especially LOTR). Shakespeare was really the last playwright to maintain this balance successfully.
However, Movies are the evolved form of stage theater, and, as such, should be judged artistically, without regard to the fleeting preferences of those who haven’t been trained to have a discerning eye. Art should evoke pathos, revolve around a unified theme that illuminates some compelling revelation about life, and, above all, say something about Truth and Beauty.
The Dark Knight does all three things moderately well, though it is heavy handed in its delivery of theme, its dialogue is laughably juvenile at times, and the acting is terrible apart from Ledger and maybe Bale. It is certainly more compelling than The Curious (i.e. unbearable) Case of Benjamin Button, which lolligags for 3 hours and manages to say absolutely nothing about life and doesn’t even appear to care about Beauty and Truth. It is certainly more interesting than Frost/Nixon, which stays too close to the actual interview to reveal any higher truths. However, The Dark Knight is not as compelling as Milk, which has something important to say (gay people have been treated horrendously in the country, shame on us!) or Slumdog Millionaire (which exposes the brutal reality of Indian poverty) or even Doubt (which is by far the best acted and most intellectually stimulating film of the year).
I would certainly nominate it for Best Picture (along with the aforementioned three). However, as I said previously, if we were to let box office preferences dictate Academy nominations, films like Twilight and Harry Potter would garner a plethora of nods, not to mention odes to idiocy such as Superbad, Pineapple Express and Wedding Crashers. Film-making would be reduced to the lowest common denominator, effectively ending its relevance in the art realm.
I wonder if anyone besides me would be excited and smiling if Thursday’s “surprise snubs” in the Best Picture category turned out to include Slumdog Millionaire*, Revolutionary Road, The Reader, WALL-E, Doubt and Frost/Nixon?
“I’m sure you would love that, since that is the only way TDK could win. *roll eyes*, stupid fanboy.”
I really didn’t want to contribute to this (and several other recent) thread because the level of discourse (insults, snark, puerile arrogance, etc.) is sadly low. But I couldn’t resist trying to divert the course of the discussion. When I now return to the thread a few hours later, there are over a hundred more comments, including the dig I quote above.
Sorry to disappoint whoever thinks I am just a poor, deluded, “stupid” TDK “fanboy,” but the Best Picture slate I would kill to see on Thursday is:
The Curious Case of Benjamin Button
Milk
The Wrestler
The Dark Knight
Happy-Go-Lucky
And that is in order of my nomination preference, not in order of my favorite films of 2008.
PS. Thanks Alex.
“When I stare at this thread, the thread stares also into me.”
haha, Gentle Benj!
If you’d somehow turned that into a Nietzsche haiku, that might have been the Comment of the Month.
@ J UK
All in fun. You know we love ya.
But you’ve torpedoed you’re own battleship a bit:
“I can’t see the movie as being a critique of them by showing them, particularly the interrogation methods. Well, except that they are ineffective in the movie.”
That’s exactly the point, and it’s no accident. Batman is not the moral compass of The Dark Knight. Lucius Fox is. Lucius Fox destroys the system that permits the “massive expansion of surveillance” (also shown to be dangerously ineffective — because although it was able to indicate the presence of shadowy silhouettes, its inability to correctly identify those sonar shadows nearly resulted in tragic collateral damage.)
For many of us, Batman is a metaphor for absolute power to protect, and what a dark path we go down when we choose to hand over our security to such a tormented and single-minded protector. We also hope The Dark Knight is only Act II, and we’re familiar with how this structure works — Act II is meant to take us to the precipice. We wait to see whether Nolan pulls us back — or plunges us over the edge in Act III.
Whether these subtleties fly over the heads of many people, those subtleties are there.
You can choose not to see or appreciate them, and nobody can convince you to be thrilled if you’re not. But that’s no excuse to scoff at everybody who wants to find the meaning and depth that you’ve already made up your mind is not there, ok?
I wish, but I can’t have the time to read all this comments. But I will write something that dozens should already written:
a) When we try to guess what the Oscar nominations/wins will be, it’s about who clearly have a shot, not our preferences. To me, Hilary Swank should never won two Oscar, and in fact, only for one that she wons she really deserve to be nominated (and I still can’t decide if it’s for “Boys” or “Million”). But I could never deny that she is a shoo-in in the two editions she was nominated and win.
b) At this point, people who hate “TDK” could wish that the movie will be snubed for a nom as BP, but couldn’t deny the fact that have a pretty good possibility, and in fact, is one of the favorites to be in the line-up. Thursday, when “TDK” appears as BP nominated, if that happened, is not like, a totally unpredictable f… surprise if “Speed Racer” or “Delgo” gets choosen.
Trust me, it is going to be like this: TDK snubbed for Best Picture, but Christopher Nolan will be nominated for Best Director. The Reader for BP, but no screenplay or director. One year ago, there was Atonement with no guild support and… BP nod! WTF? Its here again! Run away all!
Wow come back 12 hours later and war starts lol.
Some of you need to get the cancer of like the AIDS of the eye
The arguments for TDK sound very similar to those made by Dreamgirls fans a few years ago. After Dreamgirls was snubbed for BD by the GG in favor of not one but two Clint Eastwood films. That snub stuck out like a sore thumb yet we were told it did not matter. This year TDK gets one GG nomination while The Reader gets four including BP, BD,Screenplay and Supp actress.GG sometimes have six or even seven BP drama nominees but didn’t bother to expand to include TDK. Still TDK fans say GG don’t matter.Dreamgirls win GG best picture gets SAG ensemble, PGA and DGA. But is then snubbed by BAFTA. Dreamgirls fans say BAFTA snub doesn’t matter because of all the guild support. TDK gets WGA, PGA and DGA noms then is snubbed by BAFTA in picture, director and screenplay. But TDK fans says BAFTA does not matters. In 2007 Nominations are announced and a Clint Eastwood film opening in late Dec gets noms for BP and BD despite having no guild support and very little box office. Watch it happen again this year. Gran Torino does not have the reviews of “Letters from Iwo Jima” but it will be Eastwood’s biggest film ever and he has lots of friends at AMPAS. GT also appeals to the same AMPAS demographic that made Seabiscuit a best picture Oscar nominee.
IMO, the Globes, SAG and BAFTA got it right. TDK is a film that is technically well made with one great performance. It does not deserve nominations for picture, director or screenplay.
of course the dark knight had flaws! name nearly any movie that has been seen and fawned over by so many and you will find flaws.
but it was less imperfect than either slumdog or benjamin button and had more to say about the times we live in than either. the former was breathtaking and uplifting but far from perfect and i think button was overblown hollywood tripe masquerading as art. while i think slumdog does deserves a nod, button does not even deserve to mentioned among the best of the year. its a shame that fincher finally gave in to the meat grinder.
and to anyone who thinks ledger’s death did much more than add a bit of icing to the box office cake: go look what happened the last time those two characters faced off on the big screen before.
i do think the fan boy cries have lead to a bit of a backlash against the movie but if you let that sway your objectivity your opinion is null. if you honestly think the only great or noteworthy part of the dark knight is ledger’s turn than i think you are either blinded by the populist love for this film or you are being intellectually dishonest. that or you need to see more movies.
oh and for my money the two most deserving films i have seen this year will not be in the final five but will both get top awards in thier repective catagories. wall e and man on wire, coincidentally the best reviewed movies of the year, were both better than any film that has been mentioned thus far for the top prize.
“Some of you need to get the cancer of like the AIDS of the eye”
Aww, that’s a little harsh.
Well, J UK is a pretty worthless, moronically pompous and insufferable asshole, but I don’t wish harm on mr. what or the other TDK detractors. mr. what was kinda dicky at first, but he later made his point better and I respect his opinion.
J UK, though, should get a lobotomy without anesthesia from a german woman named HELGA! All I have to say about that wanka! And how dumb do you have to be to think the vast majority of people on this site, or ANY awards site, voted for Bush twice??? Or even ONCE!
Go choke on some chips, you jerkoff uber-troll!
man i thought things might have simmered since I left. Disappointed to see that I am wrong. I consider myself an authority on all things. I can say with 100 percent confidence TDK will get nominated.
So no need for debate. Whether it should is a normative claim. I think it should. Since I am an authority on all, you all should just follow me. Thus, no more debate.
To those responding to J UK,
stop feeding his ego. he’s like a petulant child who wants attention from his parents.
@ what
agreed. but the noisy wheel gets the oil doesnt it?
MATTHEW SEZ: “I don’t understand what is so wrong about being a snob. Yes I am a snob, and I am proud of that fact, as it represents the culmination of years of hard work in boarding school and college, sacrifice on my part and that of my parents, and ultimate success in the real world.”
You’re a snob because you chose to be. What type of sacrifices did you make in boarding school, exactly? And why are you implying that those of us idiot, public school kids haven’t made it in the “real world”? Boy, are you sheltered…
Love,
Very Successful, Highly Educated Phd.
P.S. Your an idiot.
what!!! Glad to see you back in the fire!
Am I the ONLY one who still thinks Tim Burton made better Batman movies than Christopher Nolan? I liked The Dark Knight–I did. And Heath Ledger’s Joker was amazing. But all of the dark versus light, good versus evil, chaos versus control stuff seemed very…familiar. It’s still among the best movies of the year, for sure. I also liked but didn’t love Slumdog Millionaire which felt incredible fresh, vibrant, entertaining, and original for about an hour before it sort of dissolved at the end into something too airy and silly. And I liked but didn’t love Milk which was big and grand and revealing but missed the emotional core of the story (at least for me). Hell, I even liked but didn’t love Wall-E, which I thought was brilliant until they got to the people… It’s an interesting year because I actually think for the most part, none of the films fighting it out for the Oscan noms are especially Oscar bait-y. The most traditional Oscar flicks–The Reader, Doubt, and Revolutionary Road–were all disappointing (to MUCH different degrees). And that’s a nice change of pace. Of course, like every year, my actual favorite movies of the year (this time Let the Right One In, Vicky Cristina Barcelona, Rachel Getting Married, and Happy-Go-Lucky) aren’t anywhere in contention.
@ Jim
Yes. I think you are in a very slim minority, as far as Burton’s Batman goes.
“Am I the ONLY one who still thinks Tim Burton made better Batman movies than Christopher Nolan? ”
Yes.
I never liked Burton’s BATMAN, did quite enjoy BATMAN RETURNS (mostly for the Keaton/Phifer doomed romance), but both were art direction masturbation.
“Am I the ONLY one who still thinks Tim Burton made better Batman movies than Christopher Nolan? ”
No, but you all are wrong.
Tim Burton made good Tim Burton movies that featured the Batman character, but I kinda hated them. And I usually love anything Burton directs (Mars Attacks and Big Fish are other exceptions). I felt the same way about Michelle Pfeiffer’s performance in Batman Returns; she was great, but that neurotic blonde was not Catwoman. And Jack is, well, Jack, but I prefer the Ledger-Joker.
My my… we had our own little war going on last night when the post first went up, but this is something else…
Look people, “The Dark Knight” is THE most popular film to be released in the last couple of years in the whole wide world, so of course you’re going to come across fanboys who are going to stick up for it and proclaim it the best, like… ever, regardless of having seen any other ‘contender’ or not.
On the other hand, you’re also going to find snobbish, pseudo-intellectual trolls (lopez, J UK…) that are going to bash the film (or anything related to it) on ANY grounds they can possibly think of, one of them being, stupidly enough, that very same popularity.
Either way, the fact remains that despite its huge popularity, or perhaps because of it, it’s still a great film beautifully and carefully crafted by an inmensely talented director and auteur.
EDIT: Paul Outlaw, good, you’re here. You asked me a question about me telling Sean Penn he’s an asshole to his own face in another thread and I answered it but you apparently didn’t go back! Here it is.
By the way Paul, your (rhetorical) question is #68 and my (very non-rhetorical) answer is #77.
Gente Benj, Why so Serious RRA?, good to see (read?) you both again!
Carlos, my rhetorical question and your response to it sidestep the modern dilemma of celebrity and litigation. If you called Sean Penn an asshole to his face (for whatever reason, moral high ground or no), he probably wouldn’t kick your ass because of the legal, financial and PR consequences — unless he was drunk when you said it to him.
So you probably could call him an asshole to his face with impunity.
PS. I read your response but did not want to pursue the subject at the time. I decided to respect your opinion and not argue…
Burton’s interpretation of Batman was interesting. But, I honestly think Nolan nailed the concept of Batman. Kudos to Tim for trying. My vote goes to Nolan.
We’re getting terribly off-subject here Paul, but I guess you can at least understand why I so passionately refuse to let it go.
I’ve assumed you’re a fan of his all along, but I now get the feeling that you’re not only defending him but also attacking me, however passively or politely. But since it is a very delicate subject, specially for a Venezuelan like me, I know that that may not be the actual case but instead, just me getting defensive.
Anyhow, I stand by what I said. Not only would I call him a ‘motherfucking asshole’ (which if you recall, is what I originally said) to his face, I hope I have the chance to do it someday.
Moreover, I don’t really think Sean Penn is one of those celebrities that care about ‘PR’ and things like that. He’s proven that over and over during his career, for instance, by meeting with widely condemned leftist dictators.
Therefore, I’d love for him to have the chance to defend himself, verbally or otherwise, instead of me being able to just do it “with impunity”.
“…but I now get the feeling that you’re not only defending him but also attacking me, however passively or politely.”
Actually, neither, simply pointing out that calling a stranger “a motherfucking asshole” to his face, for whatever reason, often leads to violence. That was and remains my sole point. You don’t seem to want to hear that, which is why I didn’t pursue it in the first place.
“The Academy is not comprised of peasants. It is comprised of educated, experienced, intelligent and discerning adults.”
Hilarious. This highly educated body of “adults” not only voted for Crash but also allows children like Dakota Fanning to join. They sometimes let in people who are too young or too dumb (and yes, sometimes too busy) to see most of the films that are released in a given year.
@Paul Outlaw:
You are the one that brought up the whole ‘I bet you wouldn’t insult him to his own face’ thing, like some sort of dare. Like he’s all too mighty, strong and powerful or simply above the rest of us.
My response was to state that I actually would, given that I have sort of special, personal reasons for disliking him.
Now, the fact that calling strangers names to their own faces often leads to violence is very much obvious, but hey, I guess point taken then, LOL!
None of your business,
Regarding your comment that Ledger was the only good thing in The Dark Knight, there’s a major flaw in your argument. Take out Anton Chigurh from No Country For Old Men and you’ve got a shitty movie. He’s a plot device. Take the shark out of Jaws and you don’t even have a movie. The shark is a plot device. So is the Joker.
Meanwhile, Heath Ledger did NOT write the lines in the movie. Chris and Jonah Nolan did. By crediting Ledger’s performance, you must acknowledge that the writers did a great job because the truth of the matter is that without a good script, the performance would have been garbage. The Nolan brothers are just as responsible for Ledger’s portrayal of the Joker as he is.
Letters from Iwo Jima got an Oscar Nomination with no SAG ensemble, DGA, PGA and BAFTA nominations.
Shawshank Redemption got an Oscar Nomination with no SAG ensemble, PGA, Globe and BAFTA nominations.
The Dark Knight is truly a landmark film. Clearly the BEST MOVIE of 2008. Sasha’s right, this film already cemented its legacy with or without Oscar nod. The Oscars needs this film.
I seriously hope TDK wins Best Picture and silences all these critics that
don’t believe it is good enough. It was great and was not only the best film of 2008 but also one of the best films of the decade. I hope it gets
the rewards that it so richly deserves. If not best picture then seeing Chris Nolan win best director and the screenplay award would be brilliant!
Why Not? It’s good to dream!
Since Braveheart hasn’t silenced the critics that didn’t think it was good enough to win, nor Crash, nor A Beautiful Mind, nor Titanic, nor Forrest Gump, nor so many other undeserving movies… why would TDK silence them?
[...] with each viewing (it probably helped that last time was in IMAX). It ended up being on of the most critically acclaimed films of the year, and not just because it made a bunch of money and not just because of Ledger’s performance. [...]
[...] with each viewing (it probably helped that last time was in IMAX). It ended up being on of the most critically acclaimed films of the year, and not just because it made a bunch of money and not just because of Ledger’s performance. [...]
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